Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you predict without reasoning?
Where is the reasoning in linear regression?
"This much of x0, and this much of x1, and this much of x2, therefore it's that much of y"
Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
151–160 of 266 posts
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#152With generated code, the directory structure, interface design and general state management is usually a haphazard mess. Even with the best frontier models. But what really gets me is the model often tries to make assumptions for me that I didn't specify in the prompt. Subtle things like which error states are "oh shit we need to bail" vs "this isn't a deal breaker." Sometimes it will ask, but more often than not it…
> But what really gets me is the model often tries to make assumptions for me that I didn't specify in the prompt.
When the LLM writes a description of a codebase, you are doing transformation from more semantic meaning to less semantic meaning, and you by definition lose some details.
When you go from requirements to code, transformation is from from less semantic meaning to more semantic meaning. The the missing semantic meaning has to be invented. When inventing the missing semantic meaning, the success depends on what the LLM has trained on.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
What a sad analogy. IKEA furniture is mostly cheap particle board crap and it's a shame that we as a humanity have cheapened our lives to the point where IKEA is some kind of standard (and the only thing) most people can afford. Back in the day furniture was artisanal and hand made yet people were able to afford and have it. Isn't that in fact weird, supposedly our societies are richer than ever before but most peopl…
I disagree with this sentiment, IKEA furniture is much more sustainable than artisanal furniture. Most of the "back in the day" furniture came from tearing down virgin woods. Sorting + shredding-recycling + making new "cheap particle board crap" furniture takes a lot of energy, but not a lot of non-renewable resources. With increased electrification this problem is being drastically reduced and the wood is sourced fr…
Damn, you think Ikea furniture is great?
Useful, or passable, sure. Great though?
"The only thing it lacks is weight." You must be being a bit hyperbolic no? Have you ever looked at artisanal/quality goods in comparison to IKEA? You can't see any quality difference?
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
By that standard, we could have AGI tomorrow, and I should still not comment. No, my app is not published yet. It will probably take another month, with hopefully no complications arising out of the AppStore review process. Then, I hope the ad campaign financials work out to compete with old apps of a lower quality that already boast no less than a million reviews. I get it, you want me to make a case that can object…
> you will either have to take my word for the quality of the product, or spend tens to hundreds of hours of effort in trying the approach for yourself You're acting like everyone here doesn't have hundreds of hours of experience with LLM coding. We all do, we all know what it's like. You're simply either lying or wrong. If it's the former, I don't care, you're just an asshole on the internet. If it's the latter, you…
I doubt that.
I believe many of you use it at work, where you need to get code through review, or voluntarily review the generated code.
Otherwise I have no explanation as to how agentic development is failing for you, while it continues to work on my side in a large code base.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
By that standard, we could have AGI tomorrow, and I should still not comment. No, my app is not published yet. It will probably take another month, with hopefully no complications arising out of the AppStore review process. Then, I hope the ad campaign financials work out to compete with old apps of a lower quality that already boast no less than a million reviews. I get it, you want me to make a case that can object…
But can't you see how coming out with a strong statement like "i've been doing this, it works" before your app even has a single user and before you've had to contend with any externally filed bug reports and keep the app stable as you fix those and add new features isn't very reasonable? If anything there are clear counter example to your claim, such as the major provider agent harnesses which are all almost always…
Don't you think I've fixed bugs and kept the app stable during the 300 hours I have been working on it?
That's why I can say with full confidence that it works.
I doubt it will magically all fall apart the moment an external user touches it, or that I will expand the scope dramatically in the near future.
The agent harnesses are an interesting topic. I believe they have large teams shipping a ton of changes weekly. In that environment, is it realistic to expect rock solid software with such a feature set to be developed in a few months and shipped to 10M users?
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions ma…
Depends on the business. I can easily see Generic Local Späti being fine to replace a mediocre hand-made spreadsheet of what products they've got in stock with a vibe-coded database that can OCR all the business copy of receipts from the till, while also vibe-coding a website and logo that's far less bad than the thing they got by asking their kid's schoolfriend to make both of them on the cheap in the 2015 summer ho…
> OCR all the business copy of receipts from the till,
I would not do this at all. OCR is still very bad. If you want incorrect dollar figures be my guest.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#157AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…
The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions ma…
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Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#158AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…
> “Tomorrow's AI coding will be good enough for most corporations”
Or for small businesses today who have a need to get things done, but not the knowledge to hire or manage a skilled programmer, nor the budget to pay them what they deserve.
I find most of the a16z podcast detestable (ethical & morally), but every now and then an episode is interesting or insightful. Here two founders are giving their time to their dentist’s business needs.
Which is to say, the dentist has needs but not the ability to solve them hisself or hire someone. Nevertheless I see opportunities for in-house staff who are working in parallel roles, to take on LLM coding and offering those owners solutions that they can’t hire, or buy—someone who knows the business and can get things done.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a16z-podcast/id8428187...
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
By that standard, we could have AGI tomorrow, and I should still not comment. No, my app is not published yet. It will probably take another month, with hopefully no complications arising out of the AppStore review process. Then, I hope the ad campaign financials work out to compete with old apps of a lower quality that already boast no less than a million reviews. I get it, you want me to make a case that can object…
> you will either have to take my word for the quality of the product, or spend tens to hundreds of hours of effort in trying the approach for yourself You're acting like everyone here doesn't have hundreds of hours of experience with LLM coding. We all do, we all know what it's like. You're simply either lying or wrong. If it's the former, I don't care, you're just an asshole on the internet. If it's the latter, you…
>You're acting like everyone here doesn't have hundreds of hours of experience with LLM coding. We all do, we all know what it's like.
But the opinions expressed are basically polar opposites, so there's clearly something to this.
The easy explanation IMO is that it takes some time to learn how to use LLM's effectively for system development. It's still skilled work, just different skills.
Some put in that effort and see results, others are annoyed that the reality doesn't match the hype and bail.
>You're simply either lying or wrong.
Surely it's possible that he was able to make it work even though you didn't?
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
What a sad analogy. IKEA furniture is mostly cheap particle board crap and it's a shame that we as a humanity have cheapened our lives to the point where IKEA is some kind of standard (and the only thing) most people can afford. Back in the day furniture was artisanal and hand made yet people were able to afford and have it. Isn't that in fact weird, supposedly our societies are richer than ever before but most peopl…
Back in the day artisans took care of horses and new have cheapened ourselves to use stinky cars. Back in the day we built computers with relays by hand, now we have cheapened ourselves to use weird semiconductors and use inefficient python code instead of highly optimized hand crafted assembly. Maybe we should go back to hunting and gathering?
Typical sentiment I see that completely lacks any nuance. For one car vs IKEA are two completely different beasts entirely.
A car opened up new avenues that a human could never do before its invention. This itself makes it a far more worthy invention than most.
IKEA cheapened stuff and gave low quality cookie cutter furniture to everyone. Was this really a great thing, that propelled humanity forward? It’s also not like IKEA brought down the price to dirt cheap, it’s just like half or one third the price. What great thing will society lose if we ban IKEA tomorrow. People will spend a bit more on furniture, but they will have artisanal quality furniture and more artisans in society. That’s a trade I’d take any day.