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The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

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Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#51

Post by _DeadFred_ »

skullone wrote: post #11

This is going to leave a mark for centuries, history books are going to look back on this period in the US in complete dismay and horror for what this country continues to do. As an American, and from my point of view, this is a headline moment where this country commits to its slide to just a middling country with "only" 380 million people mismanaged to inefficiency and un competitiveness and brain drain. The whole…

Did you miss the 1970s and the impact of Vietnam (that lasted through to the 90s for that generation)? The malaise about American from the 70s through the 80s? The corporate raiders of the 80s and the destruction of so many Americans lives in that period? The rust belt? Many many Americans of older generations losing their pensions because of Wall Street firms bs destruction of companies? The brain drain from the majority of the US into a few metro areas?

These are all things huge parts of the USA has dealt with for generations at this point.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#52

Post by jaybrendansmith »

green_wheel wrote: post #7

It's hard to overstate how poorly this whole thing was thought out and executed. They obviously had no plan for what we'd do when Iran seized the strait. This is going to go down as the definitive beginning of the decline leading to the eventual end of US global hegemony. To think anyone ever mentioned defending Taiwan from China lol

This "Strait of Hormuz War" is the "Suez Crisis of 1956" for the US Empire. You know, the one that ended the British Empire.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#53

Post by _DeadFred_ »

khriss wrote: post #17

Aaaaaand right on cue the flagging brigade promptly flagged this to get it off the front page. What's stunning is that there doesn't seem to be a single way in which the United States has come out ahead on this conflict. We have * Established that US zero ability or will to protect it's 'allies' in region beyond Israel. * Permanently ceded de facto control over the straits of Hormuz to Iran * Significantly strengthen…

Look at the quality of discussion here. It's all just 'America is dead/dying'. Nothing of note. No talking about the crazy inflation in Iran, the government officials discussions on how they can't afford replacing their naval routes with land routes. The current distress in Iran about raising the subsidized gas prices, and how Iran is using more gas than they are creating/importing. No awareness/comparison/context of understanding of Vietnam and it's much greater impact on the Nation/it's understanding of self/understand of it's ability to project power.

These is zero serious discussion on HN Iran threads, and anyone that posts not in line gets voted dead so just gave up on posting to them yet the people that complain about topics getting flagged dead never once complain when an entire view/side/political thought just get's voted dead instead of discussed nor raise the quality level of the discussion to make it no longer flag worthy.

This thread's content/quality level totally 100% deserves to be flagged.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#54

Post by preg_match »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #37
bell-cot wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many hours do you think our current President could stick to that strategy, if it didn't instantly - Poof! Magic! - make everything better?

Its not a Trump issue. With the exception of Jimmy Carter, every US president since WW2 bombed something or someone.

Yes, the US is, first and foremost, built of warmongers. The military is a multi-trillion dollar industry, it’s always been about economics.

However, trump did basically say “I’m not a warmonger”. Nobody should have believed him, but he did make it very explicit, very cut and dry. But nothing is cut and dry with him.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#55

Post by tarsinge »

fifilura wrote: post #10
green_wheel wrote: post #7

It's hard to overstate how poorly this whole thing was thought out and executed. They obviously had no plan for what we'd do when Iran seized the strait. This is going to go down as the definitive beginning of the decline leading to the eventual end of US global hegemony. To think anyone ever mentioned defending Taiwan from China lol

> To think anyone ever mentioned defending Taiwan from China lol There are still countries willing to defend democracy out there - Ukraine/Europe/Canada/Japan/S-Korea/Australia. Just not USA.

Europe explicitly does not provide security guarantees to Taiwan. A large majority of Europeans would not support an intervention. Seen from here sure it would be a loss for Democracy, but there are bigger problems today like climate change and global stability. War for and democracy at all costs narratives doesn’t work like in the US.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#56

Post by spwa4 »

username135 wrote: post #47
spwa4 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me check if I get this right: you're making the argument that if USA won't defend Taiwan, Ukraine/Europe/Canada/Japan/S-Korea/Australia will? I mean, obviously Ukraine won't. Does that need saying? It's insane to think about. Look at the history of WW1 and WW2: Russia will fight until the Russian state collapses and we're, at minimum, years away from that happening. And Ukraine, if they have any sense whatsoever,…

The litmus test for where a country stands on international issues boils down to a conversation you had with some lads over pints?

What? You want some news links over Ireland's position at the EU about their magnesium and Russian gas imports?

What it means is that not only is that the government position, but it's got wide support from Irish people. The position being: no support for Ukraine (only loans), Irish jobs and cheap gas are more important.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#57

Post by ghusto »

> When I asked current and former U.S. officials what had to be done to win

Win what? What is even going on? What is anybody (other than Iran, wanting to be left the hell alone) even after anymore? "We're going to make the Straits of Hormuz a US territory?! Are you out of your fucking mind? I mean, obviously yes, but Jesus Christ.

On the one hand, I'd love to see the regime in Iran fall, but on the other hand; absolutely insanity.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#58

Post by fifilura »

tarsinge wrote: post #55
fifilura wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To think anyone ever mentioned defending Taiwan from China lol There are still countries willing to defend democracy out there - Ukraine/Europe/Canada/Japan/S-Korea/Australia. Just not USA.

Europe explicitly does not provide security guarantees to Taiwan. A large majority of Europeans would not support an intervention. Seen from here sure it would be a loss for Democracy, but there are bigger problems today like climate change and global stability. War for and democracy at all costs narratives doesn’t work like in the US.

Yeah it is obviously mainly a problem for the countries in the eastern hemisphere.

But I expect Europe would help economically and Ukraine (the new military superpower in Europe) would help with planning and strategy and software Just like Japan, south Korea, Australia and New Zealand send support to the war against the muscovites.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#59

Post by watwut »

tarsinge wrote: post #55
fifilura wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To think anyone ever mentioned defending Taiwan from China lol There are still countries willing to defend democracy out there - Ukraine/Europe/Canada/Japan/S-Korea/Australia. Just not USA.

Europe explicitly does not provide security guarantees to Taiwan. A large majority of Europeans would not support an intervention. Seen from here sure it would be a loss for Democracy, but there are bigger problems today like climate change and global stability. War for and democracy at all costs narratives doesn’t work like in the US.

I think that war for democacy first need to happen at home. Europe is at risk, altrough holding up much better them USA did.

US does not war for democracy anyway. It wars for own interests using democracy as a fig leaf or even intentionally destroying it.

It did defended democracy after WWII, really. It did helped Ukraine, initially. But then took autocrats sides and in between did quite a few definitely-not-pro-democracy wars or coups.

Re: The Iran War Is a Whole New Level of Quagmire for the US

#60

Post by watwut »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #51
skullone wrote: post #11

This is going to leave a mark for centuries, history books are going to look back on this period in the US in complete dismay and horror for what this country continues to do. As an American, and from my point of view, this is a headline moment where this country commits to its slide to just a middling country with "only" 380 million people mismanaged to inefficiency and un competitiveness and brain drain. The whole…

Did you miss the 1970s and the impact of Vietnam (that lasted through to the 90s for that generation)? The malaise about American from the 70s through the 80s? The corporate raiders of the 80s and the destruction of so many Americans lives in that period? The rust belt? Many many Americans of older generations losing their pensions because of Wall Street firms bs destruction of companies? The brain drain from the maj…

Why do rust belt and brain drain area supposedly hsrmed by all that keep voting for pro wall street politicians and politics? They also keep voting pro-wars.
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