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Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

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Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#111

Post by whstl »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #100
quietbritishjim wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions ma…

I think the issue with your rebuttal is that companies think they have a very specific problem that needs solving, so they need bespoke software. Just read on the various HN posts where people complain about PMs moving things around for no reason other than justifying their jobs.

Yep. And it's not just PMs.

Everyone with any responsibility for picking any software in a company will work very hard to make things harder and more expensive, rather than easier.

People will ask for a 100k-year app, or whatever is the Ferrari of their business. If they don't get it, they will ask for the complex features they saw in that 100k-year software package, even if they won't use it.

If it internal software, they will ask you to develop it. If it's another vendor, they will complain until they get what they want, increasing the cost. If it's vibe-coded, they will try to prompt that until it becomes a mess.

I had this with all sorts of people: HR, Sales, translators, artists, marketers, data analysts, testers. Even software engineers are obsessed with having the "most complete" in the shape of Amazon AWS and things like that.

The only situation where I didn't see this happening was in startups where people are actually busy.

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#112

Post by Anoian »

aryehof wrote: post #43
mortalapeman wrote: post #5

With generated code, the directory structure, interface design and general state management is usually a haphazard mess. Even with the best frontier models. But what really gets me is the model often tries to make assumptions for me that I didn't specify in the prompt. Subtle things like which error states are "oh shit we need to bail" vs "this isn't a deal breaker." Sometimes it will ask, but more often than not it…

> But what really gets me is the model often tries to make assumptions for me that I didn't specify in the prompt. This is a problem with your instructions, your specification. An LLM isn't a mind reader. It will attempt to succeed regardless of missing requirements and ambiguity.

But a big part of software engineering is literally defining the requirements.

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#113

Post by jinzo »

Alien1Being wrote: post #38

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…

Would say it really depends on the area, also don't have historical data how many 'cabinet makers' there were before around here, but I have been trying to get a custom built cabinet (really simple, just exact measurements to make most of a small space) for a year or so. All of the cabinet makers are so overbooked, that they don't even give out quotes anymore. So ymmv, but I think it also fits this analogy.

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#114

Post by [deleted] »

Alien1Being wrote: post #38

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…

[deleted]

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#115

Post by weatherlite »

Alien1Being wrote: post #38

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…

> Perhaps 1% percent of current software engineers of today will be needed in the future when AI code inevitably has the ability to follow good software engineering practice..

So who talks / prompts the agents to do the work - the PM ? he will do his normal job of figma designs, customer strategy , high level requirements etc etc + do all the back and forth and validation with the agent for the actual coding?

Will it be a new type of job or will we still call it a software engineer ? And if its a software engineer why do you determine it is only 1% of current software engineers - and if indeed only 1% then how soon does it happen - will it be in 3 years ? 5 years? 15? Dario said last year that this year maybe 50% of white collar new entries gets decimated. Has it happened? If not why not?

Our predictions currently suck ass. I'm not saying you're wrong - but you could be very early which is almost the same as being wrong. I don't really care if software development as a career collapses in 10 years. I really do care if it happens next year.

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#116

Post by zer00eyz »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #57
Alien1Being wrote: post #38

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…

The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions ma…

> If you want software that is literally identical ... If it's a throwaway script, that's fine (and I don't mean to undersell this - this is a huge application).

That is the application. AppleScript, VB script, IFTT - and how many drag and drop dev tools has the industry built that were supposed to be for average office workers?

Programers are like master carpenters, and the debates we keep having sum up to joinery and how a chair leg gets turned. Meanwhile there are lots of people slapping up 2x4 and plywood shelves in their garage and bootstrapping their businesses with that.

AI is changing the "is it worth your time" calculation (https://xkcd.com/1205/ ) it's delivering on the promise of all those scripting languages that were supposed to help office drones.

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#117

Post by themgt »

quietbritishjim wrote: post #57
Alien1Being wrote: post #38

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…

The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions ma…

most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's

If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI.

Hey GLM 4.6 – spot the load-bearing sleight of hand.

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#118

Post by huflungdung »

Alien1Being wrote: post #38

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…

[dead]

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#119

Post by Calazon »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #72
andai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ikea cabinet is pleasant to look at, and its design makes sense.

But how many times can you take a piece of Ikea furniture apart and put it back together again? I have friends who have moved apartments with the same Billy bookshelf 2-3 times and if they tried it one more time the thing would collapse. Not to belabor the metaphor as heavily as my friend's Billy, but there's a maintenance corellary to be made here. Most Ikea furniture can be put together once, in one place, and left…

These are acceptable tradeoffs in many circumstances. It's good that this kind of option is available, while there are other options for people with different priorities.

Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more

#120

Post by Calazon »

koonsolo wrote: post #102
Alien1Being wrote: post #38

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…

No, coding is more like building. A garden shed can easily be built by an AI. A house? Maybe with supervision. A skyscraper? Good luck with that! And no, garden sheds do not represent 99% of software.

Sure, but neither do skyscrapers.

AI is getting better and better at "house" level building, especially with some supervision.

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