LLM is the new Excel
hey that's my line.
Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
71–80 of 266 posts
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#72AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…
Ikea cabinet is pleasant to look at, and its design makes sense.
But how many times can you take a piece of Ikea furniture apart and put it back together again? I have friends who have moved apartments with the same Billy bookshelf 2-3 times and if they tried it one more time the thing would collapse.
Not to belabor the metaphor as heavily as my friend's Billy, but there's a maintenance corellary to be made here. Most Ikea furniture can be put together once, in one place, and left there for a long time. But once you want to change it in place it may just collapse.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#73> It helps to know that LLMs don’t “reason”. They predict .. Semantics. Prediction is the training objective. The ability to reason can be, and very arguably is, an emergent property of that.
No. You're simply wrong.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then you may as well said you've solved P=NP. We do not require links to your app. What people are expecting is a description of your approach and sample outputs. So that someone else can try it and have the same standard of output. That's how you make a point that your approach is good. When we buy books like "The Practice of Programming" or "The Pragmatic Programmer", it's because we are hoping to learn useful and…
I am here to discuss my opinions on AI for software development because it's interesting. Not because I am selling a book or to prove anything to you. If I had any special approach, I would be reluctant to share it with my potential competitors. That said, I do not. It just works. Meanwhile people here are posting the thesis that agentic development without careful code review results in an unmaintainable application…
> Meanwhile people here are posting the thesis that agentic development without careful code review results in an unmaintainable application.
> I theorize that this is not something they experienced in practice, because it did not happen for me.
Are you currently maintaining the application? Like it's in production with paying users? You've only been on the app for 4 months. Compare that to something like Emacs that has been going for 40+ years. You can make a better case when you've been on prod for a few years.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#75I have an open question for software engineers out there: As someone that has never studied CS but has written basic code most of my life (accelerated now with AI), where is the best place to learn software engineering fundamentals?
I don't think there is such a thing as "software engineering fundamentals", as the fundamentals differ based on the type of software you want to make.
Do you want to make websites, or work on embedded systems?
Do you need to squeeze every OK ounce of performance out of the machine running your code, or is developer velocity more important to you?
Will your code run on a single machine, or does it need to be networked/distributed?
The thing you want to make determines what the fundamentals will look like for that area of study. There isn't enough time to learn the fundamentals of everything needed to make good software across all domains. And even if there was, you would be wasting time learning all the principles that don't apply to 99% of things you would be working on at a given moment.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#76AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…
However, Ikea furniture does not tend to collapse a critical moment 90 days after it's been put together because it was unforeseen that the cup you sat on the table would be green, which it wasn't designed to account for.
Software isn't furniture, in other words.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#77AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…
The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions ma…
> it will need at least some level of supervision from an actual expert.
An expert? An expert or two? Maybe a few experts? Sure, even that is a lot less than how many we use today. Therein lies the issue.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#78AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software en…
What a sad analogy. IKEA furniture is mostly cheap particle board crap and it's a shame that we as a humanity have cheapened our lives to the point where IKEA is some kind of standard (and the only thing) most people can afford. Back in the day furniture was artisanal and hand made yet people were able to afford and have it. Isn't that in fact weird, supposedly our societies are richer than ever before but most people can't afford artisanal goods that our forefathers would be able to afford even though they were supposedly so much poorer.
(Hint, distribution of wealth matters a lot)
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having not been formally verified, almost all software today feels cheap. Maybe an AI can change that at some point.
By Dijkstra's standards, we've been vibe coding for an entire century! I had similar thoughts recently, that now that machines are good at writing proofs, this could help with their reliability in software development. Then I had a funny incident where an LLM implemented a feature completely backwards. Plenty of tests were supplied which demonstrated that the completely broken feature was correctly implemented. I rea…
It is the reason why user stories were established, so that the person interpreting the spec knows why. Generally speaking this reduces the likelihood of this gap occuring with humans significantly. At least when they're not incompetent.
Re: Software Engineering fundamentals matter more
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
wake up, slopinthebag. wake up..
You think LLM’s will be more than a tool?
It's about agentic systems who view humans as their "tool". Much like the companies who created them. Just read the system cards of the new frontier models how those behave without strong guardrails. And remember that we already have only a generation behing capable models in the wild without guardrails