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AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

blog.florianherrengt.com

971–980 of 981 posts

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> circumvent the intention of rules lurking around the edges of regulated industries That’s not what I said, For every human activity there is an underlying reality and there is a social component of how it’s framed or talked about. Regulatory compliance is 90% social and 10% reality. So a focus on compliance means engineers spend less of their time on reality. > They won't be impressed at all by someone's big title…

Regulatory compliance is 90% social and 10% reality. Again our experiences are on opposite ends of the spectrum. For safety issues in particular getting an engineer to sign off some plan when they will be accountable for that authority later is often easiest if you simply design the thing properly. I have certainly seen compliance become a box-ticking exercise in other contexts but usually this seems to happen when t…

I think we are in full agreement!

> For safety issues in particular getting an engineer to sign off some plan when they will be accountable for that authority later is often easiest if you simply design the thing properly.

That's exactly right. An engineer aims to build a safe and reliable product (not because the credentials tell him to)! The regulatory myth is that all products are death machines until being redeemed.

That's why I say it's 90% social. The engineer builds a reasonable product. With regulation they do the same, but now they need to do work to frame that same work in regulatory terms.

Real fixes are made. The value isn't 0, but it comes at that cost.

> no-one would seriously suggest that a new grad's degree was an equivalent credential to the years of demonstrable professional experience

That's exactly what I'm saying! Professional experience and reputation within the field is what:

1. gives someone influence and credibility. 2. results in safe and reliable engineering projects.

And note that those are actually informal defined qualifications. It's NOT the credential!

So trying to add credentials to software is an attempt to bump the quality of new grads and has little to no impact on the quality of engineering leadership. As you said, the recent undergrads already lack power and influence, and the credential is simply the bare minimum to participate.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#972

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For one, the industry never did professionalize to begin with, certainly not in the way accountants, lawyers etc did. "Professionalize" is an interesting way to frame this. As Milton Friedman argued, occupational licensure is almost always pursued by the practitioners rather than consumers. The licensing boards are mostly run by practicing lawyers and CPAs, so you have practicing lawyers and CPAs determining who ca…

Milton Friedman was a libertarian crank. I'm a consumer and I'm quite happy that doctors and lawyers are licensed.

> Milton Friedman was a libertarian crank.

That's not an argument.

> I'm quite happy that doctors and lawyers are licensed.

But you're not happy that you have to pay for 10 years of medical or law school for a broken bone or employment contract.

The government could license a gradient of qualifications to better match skills with services. (as they reluctantly started to do in medicine due to pressure to economize MDs.)

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#973
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is one of the beauties of AI -- filling in the gaps to help people make their microtalents shine.

nah, as someone who's driving Claude daily by corporate mandate, AI just shits acceptable mediocrity over everything, and my microtalents don't fit into the org anywhere anymore. They've been replaced by Markdown files asking Claude to burn tokens on doing something deterministic tools already do faster and better, like checking variable names for typoes (I wish I was making this up).

Who said anything about a corporate context? :)

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#974

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still better than nothing. Once again the alternative is not nothing. The most important factor is that they are stakeholders in a project with influence. That is the reality right now, even without credentials.

> Once again the alternative is not nothing. Can you help me understand what the alternative is?

Yes the framing above is “business people don’t listen to engineers but if they had a credential they would legally be forced to”.

And I think both are false.

The top engineers on a project are collaborators with leaders in other areas like marketing, sales, IT, legal, etc. And all those have influence on a project. A business person who says “fuck what my engineer says” is not a good leader and won’t have that group’s trust or support. They all want to work together.

So by that process engineering has a seat of influence.

That exists without credentials, and credentials are not what gets you in that seat. Reputation and experience are.

Business leaders don’t do everything engineering says. They also don’t do everything the lawyers say! And having an additional legal backing would change some of these engineering conversation, but not fundamentally.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#975
post #865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, it's possible. That's why there's no Software "Engineers" without degrees in Quebec.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. The engineering requirements to be a competent software engineer in HFT a Genomics vary wildly. If completing a computer science degree and maybe a Msc in computer science is the answer fair enough, but I don’t think those credentials are enough to label someone a competent Software Engineer. What could be a generic framework? Do you have any reference to standards?

the requirements to be a dentist are vastly different than that of a brain surgeon.

Yet, both have to have medical degrees in order to be called doctors.

That you specialise after the fact doesn't really mean what you imply, not everyone who becomes a doctor can do brain surgery.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#976

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My non technical wife asked ai to brush up the photo for her cv. Ai did that with whatever cli tools were available and what it would write itself. Ai is not a faster horse. It is a phase shift. We won't see a gas station clerk write photoshop because we won't need a photoshop.

The majority of artists abhor AI, this is a particularly bad example.

Says who?

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#977
post #936

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Ways SAT is more reasonable than typical leetcode interview: - you can take it ~3 times and most colleges will give you the best score without penalty - you can use your result to apply as many times as you want - if you feel stuck you can still get a good score by moving on to the other problems - it's administered uniformly across the world - you don't need to narrate your thinking while you're still processing inf…

All true, but still the arguments presented here sound the same as the arguments against SATs and "high stakes testing". I checked a bunch of major software companies, and all of them used leetcode as a screening device. (Google, Microsoft, Nvidia, Meta, Apple, Anthropic)

Cargo cult nonsense.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#979

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be photoshop then. It will be shitty, buggy clunky app that costed a (major) fraction to develop but it will also earn a fraction. Companies like MS can afford this ie with Office suite but patience of markets and customers can allow them to go only so far, if ie Excel becomes semi-useless thats the end of Office and big cash cow for M$ (I'd say about time, that monopoly is not good for consumers at all). Th…

This is cope, ai coding agents will follow the path of self driving cars. They will be watched with extreme caution, but will slowly but surely expand outwards. Eventually manually writing code will be considered a dangerous/bug introducing act

Self driving cars are deterministic models and are missing real world data to train on to increase their accuracy.

LLMs are non-deterministic so any interaction with them is a bug inducing act by definition because you don't know what you're gonna get.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, for one, am extremely happy that electricians and plumbers have to be licensed.

Sure, but are you happy about the requirements of that licensing? Requirements that have continually expanded to require more "experience" over the years. I know in my state it was originally 1 year of experience or completion of a tech diploma and then you had to take the licensing exam. Now it is 5 years of experience and a diploma can count for one of those years. Which of course has pushed prices to insane levels…

What would you propose as an alternative? Some concerns I have are: 1) my house not burning down due to electrical fire and 2) not exploding due to natural gas leak.
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