Things I wish someone had told me about life after college • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#121

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 11:45 PM UTC

Goladus wrote: post #107

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the first three points. I disagree on the fourth. The fourth point is, ironically, most true for those who manage to become highly sought-after professionals. You have to be very well-paid and sought-after these days to achieve financial independence from any one employer, allowing you to take full responsibility for yourself. At the other end, you either get basic needs supplied via the wage paid by your…

I see what you're saying and have various opinions on this topic in general (in some cases I disagree strongly), but the point still remains that college, especially the undergraduate level, still tends to be yet one or two layers more insulated than what you describe. That's really all I was saying. Technically speaking there is nothing that is not the real world and I think that's what cat_kittles was getting at. T…

And for those like me, who were well-off and went to college on our parents' dime, fair enough. For those literally betting their future on their education in a financial transaction for which they take personal responsibility... not so much.

Which still doesn't quite hit the note I really wanted to hit. The apparent "trade-off" between personal responsibility and dependence on others doesn't exist. The real trade-off, in my opinion, is between independence and interdependence. You can live in an ultra-interdependent social-democratic economy where you depend on others both to operate both private businesses and public services that supply your need, but you still have personal responsibility. What interdependence lets us do, as any Econ 101 class explains, is specialize ourselves into our preferred niches rather than having to waste half our time farming when we really want to be computer programming.

But, in my opinion, it's downright arrogant to simply forget the interdependence. We might depend only on other people's self-interest, but that's still interdependence, and our lives would be much worse without it.

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#122

Post by eli_gottlieb » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 11:53 PM UTC

csmajor1234 wrote: post #93

JagMicker wrote: post #58

Here are some things I wish someone would've shared with me... - If you want to thrive in the professional world, get a fucking haircut and at least look the part. - If you think that you can send out a bunch of resumes and be flooded with calls about job offers, you are wrong. - Most of the phrases you've heard in your youth are true. Ex. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". See the above point. If you get a job (or…

I disagree about your second point. I'm a CS Major at a top 10 program, with a pretty good GPA (~3.7). This is a throwaway account btw. During this fall recruiting season, I sent out my resumes to all the top companies, and was offered interviews at every single one. With the exception of two companies, I received offers from everywhere I interviewed, including Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft. I think the mark…

Count yourself lucky. I graduated in 2011 and only got 2 offers from BigCo's like that, and 3 grad-school admissions out of 7 applications. Ended up being much easier to get offers from start-ups, actually.

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#123

Post by SatvikBeri » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 12:38 AM UTC

bicx wrote: post #117

michaelochurch wrote: post #89

What got me in the adult world was "4.0 syndrome". (Well, my actual GPA wasn't 4.0, but close.) Not that I was used to getting great grades and had a rude awakening, because school was a lot more intellectually challenging than 95+ percent of what I encountered in the real world, but that school led me to believe the world was more meritocratic, fair, and straight-forward than it actually is. For example, some teache…

I agree with you. I began my corporate career (explained a few posts below) with the mentality that if I worked hard and worked smart, I would be rewarded. Well, I worked for 3 years, and was only promoted once. That promotion just moved me from the first level to second level developer (in a big company, a promotion essentially just means a raise and title change from I to II). That promotion came with a slightly hi…

Wanting to avoid this fate is essentially what led me to learn social skills & politics. I literally doubled the profits of one 40-person company and received nothing but a "congratulations."

One of the best things you can do is work out an agreement beforehand. Say, "If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth (reward Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will honor their word after a highly specific agreement. This tactic is (part of) how I got a double promotion just 8 months after joining one of the most bureaucratic companies in the world-where the average time for a promotion was 7 years.

From a manager's perspective, agreeing to a promotion in exchange for a certain level of performance feels like a business transaction. But being asked for a promotion after an employee has accomplished something feels like you're just paying more for the same work. Irrational, but true.

(By the way, if anyone ever wants advice on salary negotiations/corporate politics, I'm always happy to help fellow HNers. My email is in my profile.)

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#124

Post by Goladus » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 3:08 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #121

Goladus wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying and have various opinions on this topic in general (in some cases I disagree strongly), but the point still remains that college, especially the undergraduate level, still tends to be yet one or two layers more insulated than what you describe. That's really all I was saying. Technically speaking there is nothing that is not the real world and I think that's what cat_kittles was getting at. T…

And for those like me, who were well-off and went to college on our parents' dime, fair enough. For those literally betting their future on their education in a financial transaction for which they take personal responsibility... not so much. Which still doesn't quite hit the note I really wanted to hit. The apparent "trade-off" between personal responsibility and dependence on others doesn't exist. The real trade-of…

For those literally betting their future on their education in a financial transaction for which they take personal responsibility... not so much.

Most students have no way to reasonably measure the risk they are taking or or commitment they are being asked to make. A college student funding food and shelter from a financial aid package is not yet truly assuming personal responsibility for those things. Not in the way most adults do. That's the distinction I'm making. That's what people are saying when they say that college is not the real world.

For students who really do make the investment with awareness and appreciation of the risks and financial commitments involved, my statement obviously does not apply. That's a fairly small minority of students, though.

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#125

Post by Goladus » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 3:15 AM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #120

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand what you're going on about. The parent was discussing about how most people in college are either living off loans or their family but when they graduate they have to get a job because no one else is paying the rent. I don't know, it's pretty simple, right? You're talking about some kind of "workers of the world unite" type stuff, which is not where the parent had any intention of going.

The thing is, most college students these days don't actually have someone else paying the rent. They have their future selves paying the rent via student loans. There's a level of indirection, of insulation, yes, but ultimately they are not actually being supported off someone else's charity. Actually, given the interest rates and contract conditions on student-loans these days, I'd argue students are blatantly expl…

No that's actually the only point of #4. The whole context of this discussion is the difference between students and graduates. One thing that happens when you graduate is that it becomes a lot harder to recruit your "future self" to pay for your basic needs of today.

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#126

Post by gregpilling » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:09 AM UTC

JagMicker wrote: post #111

csmajor1234 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about your second point. I'm a CS Major at a top 10 program, with a pretty good GPA (~3.7). This is a throwaway account btw. During this fall recruiting season, I sent out my resumes to all the top companies, and was offered interviews at every single one. With the exception of two companies, I received offers from everywhere I interviewed, including Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft. I think the mark…

I suppose that's sometimes true. However, some people in certain situations might receive unsolicited job offers, without ever even creating a resume or submitting an application, right? The point I was trying to make is that, I'd encourage young people to follow-up after sending out a resume. It will help you gain 'chops' for future calling/prospecting that may be required. Also, it's professional to follow-up with…

It is a common practice to hire anyone promising and see how it works out. It is a fools errand to think that you understand what a person will deliver from a job interview process. I recently put an ad on craigslist for a personal assistant for me. I was looking for a college student, times were flexible, and my office is within one mile of University of Arizona and Pima College - 60,000 students.

The ad asked for a cover letter, resume, and to come in person to the office for a typing test. I have a chronic condition that prevents me from typing much more than an hour a day. Simple, right? I received over a hundred responses of mostly low quality, people blindly firing in poorly written resumes or worse (one simply stated "I need a job and will work for money") and 5 people that actually followed instructions. I hired all five of them. One didn't like the job and left on good terms, another was great but ended up needing to work on school more, two were fired for being incompetent and the remainder is left but I promoted her and made her full time.

I know that this is not a typical hacker job, merely a personal assistant job. The point is that even in a small 10 person non-tech company like mine you can take a risk of over-hiring to try and find the good ones, the people that fit and like your business culture. Microsoft, Google, Apple et al can certainly afford to hire every reasonably competent programmer they can find that seems to fit their hiring profile. Time will tell if their potential gets realized at BigCorp. Just remember that this is a learning experience for both sides of the table.

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#127

Post by gregpilling » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:13 AM UTC

JDuMond wrote: post #63

I graduated Dec. '11. There are three things that I wish I had been told about working after college: 1. Find a mentor. If you have any flexibility in the projects you work on or the people you get to work with choose to work with someone who will be a mentor to you. I think we're all familiar with the benefits of a mentor as a teacher, but there's another important function of a mentor: they can be a "cheerleader".…

To agree with the JDuMond:

1. If someone gives you good advice, surprise them by taking it.

2. Ask questions. Just not the same ones over and over again, and not ones easily answered by Google.

3. As a manager, remember that I can't tell if you are having a bad day because you are mad at your spouse or mad at me or ???. So just tell me your issue, I would like to help.

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#128

Post by eru » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:00 AM UTC

bicx wrote: post #106

eru wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] and vacation is unlimited. I think there's a case to be made for mandatory vacation. Just make people take off at least two weeks every year.

I think as a general rule, I do agree with this. When you don't have mandatory vacation, you start asking yourself the question, "Should I really time off work?" Motivated, hard-working people have a hard time saying "yes" to that question. So far, we've all taken time off for vacation this past summer, and we're getting a couple weeks for Christmas, but I can see how such a system could have negative impacts.

That's good to hear.

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#129

Post by thisone » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 10:40 AM UTC

SatvikBeri wrote: post #123

bicx wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. I began my corporate career (explained a few posts below) with the mentality that if I worked hard and worked smart, I would be rewarded. Well, I worked for 3 years, and was only promoted once. That promotion just moved me from the first level to second level developer (in a big company, a promotion essentially just means a raise and title change from I to II). That promotion came with a slightly hi…

Wanting to avoid this fate is essentially what led me to learn social skills & politics. I literally doubled the profits of one 40-person company and received nothing but a "congratulations." One of the best things you can do is work out an agreement beforehand. Say, "If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth (reward Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will hon…

>Say, "If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth (reward Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will honor their word after a highly specific agreement.

I've had that in writing, accomplished X, Y, Z and had the reward refused, seemingly at a whim (in truth, the company couldn't afford to keep the promise at that point in time and used whatever cover they could to not pay the promised reward). However, it did provide bargaining power in the future, though I felt dirty afterwards.

I could probably use the negotiation/politics advice ;)

Re: Things I wish someone had told me about life after college

#130

Post by michaelochurch » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 11:39 AM UTC

thisone wrote: post #129

SatvikBeri wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wanting to avoid this fate is essentially what led me to learn social skills & politics. I literally doubled the profits of one 40-person company and received nothing but a "congratulations." One of the best things you can do is work out an agreement beforehand. Say, "If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth (reward Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will hon…

>Say, "If I accomplish X, Y, and Z in the next year, that's definitely worth (reward Q)." You probably can't get this in writing, but almost any boss will honor their word after a highly specific agreement. I've had that in writing, accomplished X, Y, Z and had the reward refused, seemingly at a whim (in truth, the company couldn't afford to keep the promise at that point in time and used whatever cover they could to…

One thought I would contribute regarding negotiation is that, while you might not get what you want, you can usually get something. If they can't pay you, then ask for a title or autonomy or a better project. These are "free" but can be very valuable, in the long run, for your career.

You almost never get everything you want out of a negotiation, but you can almost always get something.