Thinking the unthinkable • Hacker News Board

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#351

Post by pyre » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:28 AM UTC

ampersandy wrote: post #278

ForrestN wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the quote from AAP I posted elsewhere. Corporal punishment has been shown to be less effective than alternatives, and probably harmful to children. Corporal punishment is more common in less affluent/educated societies than it is in wealthy/well-educated ones. This is common knowledge. I never said anything about inferiority. It's not about judging anyone, it's about contradicting bad advice.

Less effective in what setting? If physical punishment is more common world-wide, that is rather telling evidence that our forebears found it to be the most effective way to bring children in line, and it has been done ever since; at least until western civilization decided it was improper or at the very least, sub-optimal. My point is that who is the AAP to say how best to raise children? I seriously doubt the valid…

  > is rather telling evidence that our forebears
  > found it to be the most effective way to bring
  > children in line

Our forebears also felt that the best was to run a society included things like:

- Slavery / Indentured Service as a means of generating wealth.

- Punishing women for sexuality (because all women were temptresses, and a man couldn't be blamed for infidelity, rape, etc).

- Torture against criminals / political prisoners.

- Religious wars.

I don't think that "our forebears did it, so there must be something to it," is a generally effective argument.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#352

Post by MartinCron » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:38 AM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #345

MartinCron wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of mass killings with knives as well I don't want to be the "citation needed" guy, but this is an outrageous claim.

read your sibling comment, but here are a few to get you started: [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre [3] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E... from [1] - Related or similar events Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda, who visited the site a week after the massacre to offer prayer to the victims,[70] said that he "is worried…

Thanks for the reasonable response. I took exception to the word "plenty" for knife massacres, as they are exceedingly rare. The truth is, gun massacres are also exceedingly rare, so I guess there's nothing wrong with that parallel, other than the obvious:

1. It's logistically easier to kill more people with a tool that's better at killing a lot of people.

and the less obvious:

2. It may be psychologically easier to commit mass murder with a somewhat detached and abstracted weapon like a gun than something more primal and physical. The same way that many people would become vegetarians if they had to slaughter their own meat.

Regardless, the earlier comment of "please don't take my guns away" serves to create a false dichotomy. It's perfectly possible to create meaningful firearm safeguards without going out and confiscating your personal weapons of watermelon destruction.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#353

Post by MartinCron » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:44 AM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #17

antidoh wrote: post #11

Outlaw guns, knives and rocks, and wink them out of existence, and these people are still there. Treat them, and some of them will come back. Outlawing guns doesn't solve this problem. But outlawing guns is the kind of "solution" we like, because a) there's a clear, specific action to argue over, and b) we can focus on it long enough to get the law through and then fool ourselves into thinking we've done something.

Regulating guns ("outlawing" is a straw man) ameliorates the problem of how much damage a mentally disturbed person can do. A knife in the same situation is much less dangerous, as evidenced by the incident in China at the same time where people were hurt, but none so far killed. Degrees matter.

"outlawing" is a straw man

I'm so glad that someone said this. So many otherwise reasonable people get seriously worried that someone with a badge is going to come to their home and pry their guns from their hands (which may or may not be cold and dead at the time)

The reality of gun control is far less dramatic, and make for far less compelling soundbites. "You can close the gun show loophole which allows people to sell handguns without background checks over my cold, dead, body" doesn't have the same ring.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#354

Post by jpxxx » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:45 AM UTC

clarky07 wrote: post #340

jpxxx wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh what a conformist Hell it must be to live in a world where the severely mentally ill don't have in-home access to six semi-automatic weapons. Unpack your baggage before wading in to this one.

So how about we blame the mother with poor decision making skills? Why do you need to ban me from owning a gun for self defense, hunting, or other sporting reasons, not to mention the fact that I like liberty in America better than a totalitarian government that doesn't allow it's citizens to have freedom. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor saf…

You have brought a knife to a gunfight, so to speak. Mellow out.

"Fart, poop, I farted." - Dr. Who

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#355

Post by MartinCron » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:48 AM UTC

evan_ wrote: post #212

bambax wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She liked to go shooting? It's a lot of fun to do. She liked to go shooting with a Glock?? And she needed to keep the gun (and ammunition) in her home? It isn't true that "Americans have had ready access to guns throughout America's history"; talking about the "Second Amendment" makes it seem that nothing has changed since the 18th century, but the truth is the current situation started no earlier than the 1960s. A…

> She liked to go shooting with a Glock?? Yes??? What do you think a glock is, just out of curiosity? It's a completely boring handgun. Semi-automatic doesn't mean what you think it does. Basically all modern guns are semi-automatic. It's a broad classification.

It's a completely boring handgun

This illustrates an interesting cultural divide. Many people don't have any real experience or understanding of guns, and let half-truths from pop-culture drive their emotional response.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#356

Post by tylee78 » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:49 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #347

ForrestN wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Outcome: The problem was fixed. He became more subdued and never threatened to run away." What other goal would there be? The idea of corporal punishment is that child fears getting hit enough that they will stop acting on the motives they have which conflict with those of the parents. In other words, they will submit to the motives of the parents. Common sense aside, the fact that beating doesn't produce good outco…

>>Common sense aside, the fact that beating doesn't produce good outcomes for children is common knowledge in highly educated societies. Are these societies the same societies where shoot outs happen at schools? Because I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case. Physical abuse is one thing. Disciplining is another. 'You won't get to play your video game' is not even a punishment. If you are thinking you can discipl…

I really am surprised by most of the (young) parents I have met so far in the US. My father used corporal punishment for even little things on us and left a (psychological) scar - I could never touch my kids - on the other hand, in our home (4 kids of my own) discipline is an extremely high (positive) value.

This has nothing to do with submission but with self-control - a rare quality which kids have to master. The so-called "timeouts" and disciplinary measures by our American friends don't work - resulting in children which cause so much more suffering for everybody - they don't work because the parents just do not establish a sense of authority and strict rules. Forget physical punishment for a moment but at home the parents and in school the teachers have to be able to establish their authority. I have seen so many parents, themselves using mental pharmaceutica who let their kids get away with things that were purely evil. At the same time I feel the sub-human stimulation (TV, games, etc.) many kids are flooded with over decades is considered less (negatively) habit forming than the application of simple repetitive acts of cultured manners, polite expressions and self-restraint.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#357

Post by MartinCron » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:53 AM UTC

confusedNRA wrote: post #213

dr_ wrote: post #79

I feel for the parent who has written the article, and whereas I agree we must do more to address the needs of kids with mental illness, I disagree with the stated premise of the article, that it's easy to talk about guns. It's actually not easy to talk about guns in this country, which has led to a lack of any serious gun control regulation. It borders on insanity when we look at the type of weaponry we allow our ci…

"It borders on insanity when we look at the type of weaponry we allow our citizens to purchase..." "The nra is a terrorist organization." Wow. Just plain wow. It's probably pointless to respond to your post, considering the emotions you are displaying regarding this topic, you probably won't even listen to a single thing, no matter, at least others who see this reply might understand just how perturbed you really are…

Since there are many countries with the kind of gun laws you apparently want, I'd suggest moving to them.

There are also many countries that are representative democracies where we, the people, work together to change laws when we feel that they can be better. The "if you don't like it here, then move!" argument is both cliche and vapid. You do the rest of your compelling argument a dis-service by bringing it out.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#358

Post by rapind » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:53 AM UTC

timtadh wrote: post #337

kamaal wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Urdu we have a proverb it translates to English as - "Treat your teachers beating, as a garland you could receive in the future". I agree corporal punishment is cruelty. But some minimal beating must be allowed to put things in order. My mom is a teacher, and back here in the past and to some extent now. Beating kids in school in India was the norm. She tells me many parents would come ask the teachers to not beat…

"Spare the stick and spoil the child" That proverb is misapplied. When you look at the original Hebrew in context the stick was a guiding stick not a beating stick. A guiding stick is one used for gentle nudges to keep someone on the right path. Basically the proverb is saying: An unguided child is a spoiled child. Today is is often interpreted: An unbeaten child is a spoiled child. However, this is not the original…

Thanks for this. I've heard this several times and always just assumed it was a throwback. I can definitely agree with "An unguided child is a spoiled child" though.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#359

Post by dpatru » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:58 AM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #196

elpachuco wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story. My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9…

Physical abuse does not solve mental health issues. Ever. Submission is a terrible goal in raising children.

Why is submission a terrible goal in raising children? Isn't submission to authority absolutely required to achieve success and stay out of jail?

And once a person is an adult, physical abuse (police beatings, confinement with criminals, disgusting (http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/apr/loaf/)) is the normal way rebellion is treated. And it seems to work. Most people avoid harming their neighbors and pay their taxes.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#360

Post by MartinCron » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 4:59 AM UTC

LatterJohn wrote: post #14

jerrya wrote: post #2

I think this woman's blog post is interesting, for all the obvious reasons as well as the consideration that Aspergers and other forms of autism are associated with Silicon Valley children.

As someone from her sons perspective. Unfortunately, she doesn't deal with her son the way he needs to be dealt with. Stick him in-front a computer, surround him with electronics(DO NOT TAKE THEM AWAY, USE THEM AS THERAPY) and feed him. Nothing else... This is how your autist/aspy child becomes a brilliant geek. If you even attempt to program them in the NORMAL way, they will do nothing but, reject, and yes, call you…

Unfortunately, she doesn't deal with her son the way he needs to be dealt with

I understand the urge to sympathize with her son's perspective, but it's very possible that a parent, who has worked with this kid every day of his life, might know a thing or two more about how to be a parent than you do.