Thinking the unthinkable • Hacker News Board

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#261

Post by pfedor » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 8:49 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #208

> At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing. Right there, is why we needed health care reform. (And still need more.) I'd like to meet one middle class person who's not on a big company's pr…

I'd like to meet one middle class person who's not on a big company's premium plan tell me otherwise.

Happy to oblige. I recently looked into this before I quit my job four months ago to spend some time working on hobby projects. So here's the situation as I understood it: (a) There is a law called COBRA which says after you've quit your job the insurance company has to keep you on the same plan you had for the next 18 months (36 months in California), with the same rates your employer was paying, (b) There is a law called HIPAA which says that after you've used up all COBRA the insurance company has to give you coverage regardless of any preexisting conditions, as long as the gap in your coverage was below (I think) 60 days. So someone in my situation (middle class person not on a big company's plan, as you asked) there is no gain from the healthcare reform. Also, while this was not immediately relevant to my situation, I think that (in CA at least) the insurance company cannot deny you coverage based on the preexisting condition if you're below certain age (19 years old I think?). So as long as you've either gotten the coverage below that age or had a job with a group plan at any point later in your life, and had no gaps in coverage since, you are fine.

I'm not at all against the healthcare reform, but I suspect that most of the time when people complain about the healthcare situation in the US they just don't know the facts. I also suspect that in many cases when people share their health insurance horror stories, there is something they're not telling you. Like that they had a gap in coverage. Or that they had to take a job because they needed steady income, and saying it was because of health coverage has a better ring to it.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#262

Post by _feda_ » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:03 PM UTC

I live in northern ireland where the state of mental health institutions is probably closer to eastern europe than it is to other western institutions (at least it is in my limited experience). Patients are usually prescribed a bunch of vague, cure all drugs and left to rot. There arent any activities or things to do for patients. Patients tend to get worse rather than better because of effect of the drugs and the general malaise and hopelessness of the place.

Mental hospitals are more or less the lowest common denominator when it comes to treatment of mentally ill people. It takes more money in the short term to do house calls, and to support people in normal life, but in thelong term it is more beneficial to keep these people in the mainstream of society, and not artificially compartmentalized and ostracized.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#263

Post by PeterisP » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:05 PM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #196

elpachuco wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story. My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9…

Physical abuse does not solve mental health issues. Ever. Submission is a terrible goal in raising children.

Well, it depends on where you draw the line - I mean, in our society we have agreed that we will force everybody to submit to certain rules, no matter what they want or what it takes to make them submit.

As an example, if someone (for whatever reason) wants to kill his neighbour and take his goods/wife/house/whatever, then we'll force him not to do it, up to and including lethal force by lots of armed uniformed men.

Continuing with the example, if a "kid" realistically threatens to perform criminal acts - such as shooting someone, robbing someone, raping someone - then submission is not optional, it's mandatory and it SHOULD be an absolute goal. The only question is how to make that submission happen in a humane manner - if the expected result is violence and a long prison term or death, then many means of forcing submission, such as threatening physical punishment or forced medication may seem quite reasonable.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#264

Post by beefman » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:08 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #260

beefman wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To clarify, fully automatic guns can be owned, at least in some States. Current federal law prohibits automatics manufactured after 1984 (IIRC) being sold to civilians. You can buy one manufactured before that. This restriction of course makes the available guns extremely expensive. There is also a demanding series of signoffs, from the ATF down to your local sheriff, that you need to get through. But it can be done.

The rigamarole is enough that legally purchased fully automatic firearms are never actually used to commit crimes in the United States.

Correct.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#265

Post by PeterisP » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:13 PM UTC

edj wrote: post #170

forrestthewoods wrote: post #7

Post like this terrify me. What if there isn't anything that can be done? It seems like there are some people that are just born broken or at some point they break. Men who experience schizophrenia it often stars in their late teens or early 20s, and late 20s/early 30s for women [1]. I had a friend in high school who was completely normal in every way. During his first year in college he literally just went crazy. It…

The West tried institutions (poorhouses, asylums). But forced institutionalization just isn't compatible with basic human rights. It was also expensive and failed to provide a venue for effective treatments. Starting in the 1970s the West deinstitutionalized[1]. But at least in the US we never sufficiently funded community care, which was supposed to replace mental institutions. So the severely mentally ill end up li…

Are mass murders compatible with basic human rights?

I mean, if at some point we identify a set of mental diseases that (a) can be accurately diagnosed; (b) can't be cured; (c) make the patient a violent threat to society - then wouldn't forced medical institutionalization be a better option then both current options of street-life or jails?

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#266

Post by stcredzero » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:20 PM UTC

pfedor wrote: post #261

stcredzero wrote: post #208

> At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing. Right there, is why we needed health care reform. (And still need more.) I'd like to meet one middle class person who's not on a big company's pr…

I'd like to meet one middle class person who's not on a big company's premium plan tell me otherwise. Happy to oblige. I recently looked into this before I quit my job four months ago to spend some time working on hobby projects. So here's the situation as I understood it: (a) There is a law called COBRA which says after you've quit your job the insurance company has to keep you on the same plan you had for the next…

> Happy to oblige. I recently looked into this before I quit my job four months ago to spend some time working on hobby projects.

I should simply extend this to, "one middle class person who's not had the benefit of being on a big company's premium plan tell me otherwise." If it wasn't for COPBRA and HIPAA, you'd be in a much different situation.

> So as long as you've either gotten the coverage below that age or had a job with a group plan at any point later in your life, and had no gaps in coverage since, you are fine.

That's a whole lot of stipulations. I think it should just be reduced to the last 3 words.

> I also suspect that in many cases when people share their health insurance horror stories, there is something they're not telling you.

I see lots of people roll their eyes when I mention my sister's healthcare horror stories. How is it that people know a priori that, "there is something they're not telling you?" There is some clear prejudice operating here -- without exception, people who have that axe to grind don't even let me finish the sentence before their eyes roll. Incidentally, my sister is covered under the plan for the New York City Ballet. She's a dance educator and takes the same classes as the company as enrichment for her job. Even she has a healthcare horror story.

She blew out her hamstring during one of those classes. She was scheduled to go in for an MRI to see if she needed surgery, but there was a traffic accident involving a toddler, and they had to MRI the kid first, so she couldn't get her MRI, so the doctors have her stay overnight at the hospital to get her MRI first thing in the morning. Well, it turns out she didn't need surgery, so the insurance company sticks her with over $4000 for the hospital stay! There is nothing I'm not telling you about that.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#267

Post by mahyarm » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:30 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #237

polyfractal wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Here in the States (at least, where I grew up), handwriting is a real mixed bag. When you are learning how to write as a small child, it's a big deal to write clearly (for obvious reason). Then you are forced to learn cursive, and its a big deal to write cursive clearly. Then it doesn't matter anymore. Literally everyone stops caring as long as it is legible. It's a weird system. While you are learning t…

I think some schools don't even teach cursive any more. I wonder how those kids write their signatures.

They print them out.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#268

Post by bambax » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:31 PM UTC

polyfractal wrote: post #135

unimpressive wrote: post #99

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. She forgot to mention the time(s) he threatened to run away. (I'd be surprised if he didn't.) After a marathon of transfers, expulsions,…

Re handwriting: If you are still into improving your handwriting, buy yourself a fountain pen. It makes it a lot of fun to experiment with new characters and drastically alter your handwriting. I've always had meh handwriting. Not horrible, but not pretty either. I've been slowly converting my scratchy characters over to smoother, more flowy characters with embelleshments, since fountain pens make it so easy to play.…

I've very seldom used anything else than a fountain pen. It's so nice and pleasurable!

My older kid is 7 and learned to write last year with a fountain pen. His teacher said it prevents kids from pressing too hard on paper, and helps them develop a nicer writing.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#269

Post by syncopatience » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:34 PM UTC

ht_th wrote: post #84

thinkling wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd certainly be curious to see statistics that adjust for population. The stat quoted by 'slyn above is that the next country for gun violence over the last 25 years would be Finland with 2 incidents, but Finland has 1/30th the population of the U.S. It would be more appropriate to look at the EU overall for comparison. Last year there was a shooting in Norway with 70+ dead and I believe one in southern France in a…

It is interesting to see of the Norway shooting falls in the same statistical category of "mad shooter" or in something like "homeland terrorism". But yes. There seems to be a rise of similar incidents all over the developed world, although access to guns is in the USA a lot easier than elsewhere and that reflects on these excesses. For example, knivings (is that a word?) seem to be more common than shootings around…

The most common term is "stabbing", e.g. "stabbings are up 25% this year."

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#270

Post by vailripper » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 9:45 PM UTC

fatbird wrote: post #256

elpachuco wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story. My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9…

Another word for "beating" is simply "consequence". Establishing that there are negative consequences for particular behaviours is what's important (and that they're consistently applied and adhered to), and clearly the mother knows that--she punished him effectively by yanking his electronics for a day. There's nothing particular about beating a child that's more effective than other punishments. Show me a child who…

What this misses is that for many mental illnesses, is that the connection between actions and consequences is broken. My brother had EXTREME issues with oppositional defiance disorder and ADHD growing up. I can guarantee you my parents made sure there were consequences, but it doesn't matter. They simply can't connect the actions they're taking in that moment to the consequences they will receive afterwards.