Thinking the unthinkable • Hacker News Board

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#201

Post by HarryHirsch » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 5:51 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #133

edanm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Also, if I had had a "soccer mom" that told me I couldn't wear a this or that color of trousers when I was 13 (13!!), I would have called her names, too." Just an fyi, many countries have different levels of school uniforms. When I studied in England, I was wearing a full school uniform - button shirt, tie, trouses, sweater, etc. This from the first day of school, basically. Here in Israel, some schools have a "scho…

I went to a boarding school in Ireland for a year, and they had a uniform -- but it was a uniform, not a "policy". There was one pair of trousers, one shirt and one pullover allowed, and they were provided by the school. This was fine with me; it was a very clear rule with only one interpretation possible, and it was completely external to my relation with my parents or in fact authority in general. You had to wear a…

> I feel everything is about her, not him, and that's why he's so upset.

Indeed. It seems that the son has an exemption from the uniform policy ("They told me I could wear these" he insisted), the mother has this desire to make the child conform, and is insufficiently introspective to examine her own motivations ("my 13-year old son ... missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants"). Hey, he missed the bus because you made him wear your favorite set of trousers.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#202

Post by newbie12 » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #162

elpachuco wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story. My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9…

In Urdu we have a proverb it translates to English as - "Treat your teachers beating, as a garland you could receive in the future". I agree corporal punishment is cruelty. But some minimal beating must be allowed to put things in order. My mom is a teacher, and back here in the past and to some extent now. Beating kids in school in India was the norm. She tells me many parents would come ask the teachers to not beat…

Yeah, where is Michael's dad in all of this? I would have had the living hell beaten out of me if I had ever called my mom a bitch.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#203

Post by newbie12 » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 5:55 PM UTC

ForrestN wrote: post #196

elpachuco wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story. My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9…

Physical abuse does not solve mental health issues. Ever. Submission is a terrible goal in raising children.

But in some cases, these are just behavior issues, not mental health issues. Indeed, prescribing pharma and telling a kid he's mentally ill might be compounding the behavioral issue.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#204

Post by kc0bfv » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 5:56 PM UTC

draq wrote: post #44

joonix wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be politically incorrect to say right now, but I think the genes associated with mental illnesses that have a tendency to lead to violence will be phased out by a future generation sometime within this century and the next. We'll soon enough try gun control. That won't stop mass killings. Then we'll try increased mental healthcare access. That won't do much because we'll struggle with the Constitutionality o…

The truth is that humans, like all other animals, have been selective breeding all the time, it's called evolution. We select our mates based on their phenotypes (like aggression, intelligence etc). It was more so in the past than now. People used to abandon infants that are born "defective" (we now have abortions). Parents selected the mates for their children because they are believed to be better judges of "good"…

The benefits that natural selection causes to propagate are those which improve the organism's reproductive opportunities. Those "benefits" aren't necessarily all that great when you've got a civilization. To take it to a ridiculous extreme, if a gene exists which makes you kill all the other men in your village, then impregnate all the women, that gene will be pretty popular in the next generation.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#205

Post by alvaromuir » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 5:59 PM UTC

I'm sorry. Im a parent. This lady needs to control her kid. Vote it down if you want, but when 'Michael' snaps and shoots up a school then everyone will say shouldve couldve woudldve. She is clearly ALLOWING this behavior. Funny, no mention of a father.

From experience, mothers are way more tolerant of out of control kids.

This is a tragedy waiting to happen.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#206

Post by jakejake » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 5:59 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #162

elpachuco wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. I remember doing that. > He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work. I remember that. > A few weeks ago, Michael..threatened to kill me I did that too. I wonder if a nice beating would have done you any good. I have one anecdotal story. My older brother was uncontrollable at the age of 9…

In Urdu we have a proverb it translates to English as - "Treat your teachers beating, as a garland you could receive in the future". I agree corporal punishment is cruelty. But some minimal beating must be allowed to put things in order. My mom is a teacher, and back here in the past and to some extent now. Beating kids in school in India was the norm. She tells me many parents would come ask the teachers to not beat…

It's certainly not a very popular western attitude these days. Positive reinforcement and re-direction is used in place of discipline.

I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it but it does seem to me that different kids react to different kinds of treatment. Hitting one kid may really be unnecessary and even harm them mentally. Other kids seems like absolutely nothing works on them except physical spanking. Maybe that is due to the way their parents are raising them? I'm not sure.

I remember in school a few bullies who got their ass kicked by another student and that problem was instantly solved. So it does seem like it works sometimes. But I hate to think we're just perpetuating a violent nature .

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#207

Post by patrickgzill » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 6:04 PM UTC

Divorced 4 years ago, children angry, this kid probably needs discipline more than he needs drugs, many of which aren't even properly tested on developing brains.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#208

Post by stcredzero » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 6:05 PM UTC

> At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

Right there, is why we needed health care reform. (And still need more.) I'd like to meet one middle class person who's not on a big company's premium plan tell me otherwise.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#209

Post by confusedNRA » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 6:07 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #197

shirederby wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet only in the US do kids shoot other kids with automatic weapons. I'm getting very tired of this. If you want to have an informed discussion about gun violence you need to acquire at least a modicum of information about firearms, especially but not limited to different actions, e.g. , single-action, semi-automatic, and automatic. Virginia Tech? 2 semi-automatic pistols. Sandy Hook? 1 semi-automatic rifle and 2 se…

This discussion about "semi-automatic" versus "automatic" weapons actually strengthens the case FOR regulation; automatic weapons are regulated => they're not used in mass-killings; semi-automatic weapons are not regulated => they are used in mass-killings. How one can conclude from these facts that less regulation is better, I don't know. All guns are bad, and the more automatic they are, the worse. The NRA says "gu…

You couldn't even tell the difference between a semi automatic weapon and a fully automatic weapon.

Then you make a reply, glossing over the fact you haven't a clue what you are talking about, to then make another asinine post.

"automatic weapons are regulated => they're not used in mass-killings; semi-automatic weapons are not regulated => they are used in mass-killings."

Could you please extrapolate how semi-automatic weapons are apparently "not regulated". This I'd really love to hear, considering how difficult it is to obtain one. I understand this does indeed differ from state to state, but to make the blanket statement, "semi-automatics are not regulated" is so unbelievably wrong, it shout outs to the reader to not reply to your post because there is a level of understanding you clearly don't have.

"All guns are bad, and the more automatic they are, the worse." A statement like this could only come from someone who doesn't actually understand a damn thing about guns.

I think you have a lot of reading to do.

Re: Thinking the unthinkable

#210

Post by javajosh » Sun, Dec 16, 2012, 6:07 PM UTC

xyzzy123 wrote: post #47

javajosh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like the most humane way to go. I don't see anyone else in this thread doing anything more than throwing their hands up in the air saying that it's a problem too difficult to solve, including you. So, rather than poo-poo my ideas, how about offering up your own?

You're right that there are no easy answers, especially for the mentally ill who may not be treatable. [Note: I come from NZ, so the perspective of a largely state-run health system]. I think that humane mental institutions would be a much better alternative to prison or surgical intervention. A lot of people were locked up in mental institutions right up until the late 80s, early 90s. Often, people who should not ha…

>As an aside, I'd like to point out that you're proposing to take people who might be psychotic or schizophrenic, and implant remote control devices in them.

A Kiwi, great. I've travelled fairly extensively through that part of the world, and it is a beautiful place - minus the sand flies, of course.

I think it is a good instinct to be wary of new ideas, but not good to dismiss them out of hand. One of the things I liked about the Kiwi culture is the can-do attitude. People are happy to try things for the first time, and maybe fail, but somehow the culture gives people a rush of success. It's a unique and great feature of the society.

And it's that attitude of empiricism that we've somehow lost. We don't see political or social solutions as experiments we see them as set-in-stone moral mandates. Remote medication may be a terrible idea, but we don't know. It certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth - but frankly, it's a better taste than the one left by the OP's heart-wrenching article. The possibility that the boy could be given the remote himself is a hopeful one, similar to how diabetics or even epileptics can learn to see danger coming and take steps to prevent it.

And the "bright side" to this, if it worked, is huge. This person could be a real part of society, living as happy a life as any of us, rather than living out his life locked in an institution. Permanent institutionalization is societies way to kill someone without actually killing them.

In other words, I feel that this solution could be more humane, far more humane, than life-long incarceration in a mental institution, and it's an experiment that is worth trying.

(Of course, I'm assuming that life in a mental institution is pretty terrible, which I suppose is not really a given. If I could be convinced that such a life is actually worth living, then no, I probably wouldn't pursue such a questionable alternative.)