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AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

economist.com

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Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#131

Post by bitwize »

soupspaces wrote: post #119
rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

This is sophistry. Of course it's just an algorithm. But it's placed in the context of serving humans, which have their own rules and expectations. What's more, they're often run by a company which is also made by humans and may carry over implicit interests.

No, it's not really. Presenting them as person-like, with the implied expectation that they understand morality and rules the same way a person does, is the sophistry. It's marketing on the model vendors' part. "Here's a cheap person that can do mundane tasks for you spelled out in plain language. Well, it's actually a machine but it's cheaper than a person yet you can engage with it like a person." GP is trying to shift people's expectations back to the realm of what these things are actually capable of. You can speak to them in English but you must bear in mind that they are not people and lack critical cognitive abilities people have.

This, really, was the point of the HAL story in 2001: HAL didn't murder anyone because it was incapable of malice. It just reasoned its way to a solution that could satisfy the contradictory goals it had been given.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#132

Post by alwaysbeconsing »

kamranjon wrote: post #81
rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

I don't really think the distinction here is relevant. If the end result is the equivalent of lying, cheating or stealing - then the problem still exists and it needs to be solved.

Relevant to some extent it dictate our approach. When human does lying or cheating, certain tool can be deployed (social shame, ostracise) that cannot be effective towards LLM.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#133

Post by afthonos »

ipsod wrote: post #120
ralfd wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But other users are not aligned to me, other people are the worst and potentially highly dangerous. Im serious, not sarcasm.

Let's say you're facing an average psycho, who is intent on mass murder - the more the better. Would you rather them have: a) guns b) psycho-aligned next-gen AI

Obviously (a).

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#134

Post by doawoo »

pton_xd wrote: post #85
rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

Models understand the relationships between words and outcomes, so the end result is the same. Whether they appreciate lie, cheat, and steal the same way as us is a philosophical question, not a practical one.

Models don’t “understand” - they _encode_ the relationships between words.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#135

Post by georgemcbay »

ipsod wrote: post #120
ralfd wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But other users are not aligned to me, other people are the worst and potentially highly dangerous. Im serious, not sarcasm.

Let's say you're facing an average psycho, who is intent on mass murder - the more the better. Would you rather them have: a) guns b) psycho-aligned next-gen AI

> Would you rather them have:

As an American... I suspect that regardless of what I want they will have virtually unlimited access to both now that the tech industry understands how the lobbying game works.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#136

Post by boonzeet »

pton_xd wrote: post #85
rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

Models understand the relationships between words and outcomes, so the end result is the same. Whether they appreciate lie, cheat, and steal the same way as us is a philosophical question, not a practical one.

It is an important distinction - they do not 'understand' at all.

Input tokens map to output tokens. The illusion of comprehension is a byproduct.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#137

Post by afthonos »

bitwize wrote: post #131
soupspaces wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sophistry. Of course it's just an algorithm. But it's placed in the context of serving humans, which have their own rules and expectations. What's more, they're often run by a company which is also made by humans and may carry over implicit interests.

No, it's not really. Presenting them as person-like, with the implied expectation that they understand morality and rules the same way a person does, is the sophistry. It's marketing on the model vendors' part. "Here's a cheap person that can do mundane tasks for you spelled out in plain language. Well, it's actually a machine but it's cheaper than a person yet you can engage with it like a person." GP is trying to s…

The dead astronauts were relieved to have been killed by something incapable of malice. As I’m sure will we.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#138

Post by Arainach »

ipsod wrote: post #120
ralfd wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But other users are not aligned to me, other people are the worst and potentially highly dangerous. Im serious, not sarcasm.

Let's say you're facing an average psycho, who is intent on mass murder - the more the better. Would you rather them have: a) guns b) psycho-aligned next-gen AI

False dichotomy, there's no reason not to have controls on both.

Given the choice between them having access to guns and nuclear waste my answer is also "neither".

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#139

Post by icepush »

rossdavidh wrote: post #69

They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. The…

You could defensibly have this position three years ago.

Today you just sound like a politician throwing a snowball to prove that the climate is not changing.

Re: AI agents lie, cheat and steal. That is putting off users

#140

Post by no-name-here »

user_7832 wrote: post #128
burnte wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The copyright arguments really trip me. I've always loved law and have had a deep interest in copyright law for 30+ years. I feel it's a really critical legal area in modern times, and when Claude tries to argue with me about copyright it really cheeses me off. I didn't ask any copyright questions and I'm well aware of regulations. It refused to share a link with me because it thought the link was copyright protected…

I've asked claude for a translation of a song with Brazilian Portuguese lyrics, and claude has very helpfully gone out of its way to say that due to legal reasons, it will never share the actual lyrics with me. It's fun when you want to know what the lyrics are to a song and get treated like a criminal.

> … claude has very helpfully gone out of its way to say that due to legal reasons, it will never share the actual lyrics with me. … It's fun when you want to know what the lyrics are to a song and get treated like a criminal.

Anthropic has been in court for years being sued over lyrics by the music industry:

2023 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/oct/19/music-law...

2026 https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/us-music-publish...

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