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AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

blog.florianherrengt.com

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Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#791

Post by noduerme »

overgard wrote: post #375
Syntaf wrote: post #35

> bad engineers were always a liability This part of the article hits home for me. With AI, "bad" engineers can now amplify their "bad" engineering x10 across the organization. The most egregious of these cases for me is often long tenured engineers who have lost interest in the craft, creating a dangerous combination of having enough merit to ship but not enough interest to make what they ship _good_. I am still a f…

I kind of think the whole "Learn to Code" push of the 2010s was one of the worst things that happened to our industry. Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. The problem is our industry mostly doesn't have any sort of reasonable mentorship or apprenticeship culture, so we've always left it to the engineers to teach themselves. Sink or swim. The problem is th…

One thing is for certain... the "learn to code" movement was a smug, pompous, and deeply unsympathetic response by privileged knowledge workers toward blue collar workers who experienced mass unemployment a couple times in the last decade, beginning in 2008, and it really pissed off a lot of the people it was directed at. I know a lot of people who did move out of trade and service jobs and learn to code, but very very few who made it far enough to keep those jobs. The guys in the trades are having the last laugh now, and there's no sympathy for coders whose jobs are being taken by AI... largely as a result of the attutide that came with that prescription.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#792

Post by DonHopkins »

eloisius wrote: post #759
WalterBright wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're willing to travel to be on site, you should be willing to study for the leetcode test.

So if it’s just a shit-test to see if the applicant has enough grit to grind through an arbitrary filter, and not to measure their aptitude, why not use Minecraft or something? Come into our office and show us how long it takes you to kill the End Dragon.

Factorio is a much better test of your design and programming and refectoring ability than Minecraft.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#793

Post by anothereng »

rglover wrote: post #207
bookofjoe wrote: post #170

It wasn't that long ago that many were demanding writing code be a required subject in elementary school.

It still should be. Any educator worth their salt should be able to connect the dots on where all of this leads. I always joke with my wife and invoke a line from this [1] Art Bell episode "the disasters that are coming..." People really don't seem to consider that our civilization is remarkably fragile and dependent on humans. Any given system can just fail at a moment's notice and you need people around who know ho…

you're right, some people should always be able to work without access to AI or the internet. I guess these people are essential services

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#795

Post by StableAlkyne »

unified101 wrote: post #760
StableAlkyne wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has traditionally been offloaded by having seniors do the hard thinking then distill it into a jira ticket which could be handed off to an engineer that'd actually write the code I wish this were the extent of it nowadays. But for whatever reason, I've seen multiple really promising engineers get a hold of AI tools, and just outsource all of their thinking to it. The self-infantalization is so bad that I was p…

> ask Claude if it makes sense to do X This is a fantastic way of working with agents in my experience. It's like have a peer architect who can challenge you and help you improve. You're projecting your own feelings and fears by calling it infantalizing.

There is a world of difference between using it as a "peer architect" and outsourcing your entire thought process to it.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#796

Post by vrighter »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #414
overgard wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of think the whole "Learn to Code" push of the 2010s was one of the worst things that happened to our industry. Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. The problem is our industry mostly doesn't have any sort of reasonable mentorship or apprenticeship culture, so we've always left it to the engineers to teach themselves. Sink or swim. The problem is th…

The whole "learn to code" and software bootcamp craze always baffled me. Like what other profession markets themselves as "Hey, our job is so easy that any schmuck off the street can enter the career with 4 months of training." Practically every other job I can think of at a similar salary level has entrance requirements (e.g. grad school admissions exams), extensive and expensive training, a lengthy apprenticeship p…

I use a variation of it. "Typing the code in was never the hard part. The work is in figuring out what you want to describe"

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#798

Post by unified101 »

bryzaguy wrote: post #70
declan_roberts wrote: post #12

Between AI and competing against the world with H-1B, it's really never been harder to get an entry or mid-level software engineering job. Which means our pipeline to senior engineer is completely broken.

What if the new entry level is what we consider senior today? Isn't it possible today to obtain entry/mid level skills with LLMs? I wonder if things will shift more in that direction.

Already seeing it in many places.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#799

Post by ofjcihen »

noduerme wrote: post #791
overgard wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of think the whole "Learn to Code" push of the 2010s was one of the worst things that happened to our industry. Call me a gatekeeper if you want but, we ended up with a lot of people that just can't do the job. The problem is our industry mostly doesn't have any sort of reasonable mentorship or apprenticeship culture, so we've always left it to the engineers to teach themselves. Sink or swim. The problem is th…

One thing is for certain... the "learn to code" movement was a smug, pompous, and deeply unsympathetic response by privileged knowledge workers toward blue collar workers who experienced mass unemployment a couple times in the last decade, beginning in 2008, and it really pissed off a lot of the people it was directed at. I know a lot of people who did move out of trade and service jobs and learn to code, but very ve…

I have yet to know anyone who’s lost their job to AI. On the contrary, because juniors are being hired less, the ladder on a well-paying job in knowledge work is essentially being pulled up (by the Csuite mind you).

So unfortunately, for those like me who spent a decade in the trades, saw that it could destroy your body by your 40s and decided I’d like to not have that happen to me the number of exits into knowledge work is shrinking.

Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?

#800

Post by brailsafe »

This is something I've been concerned about. Out of work again for the something like the 7th time this decade, I'm not sure I even care to try and get another one. Unless a place is super low key and actually tests relevant skills, even with kore experience under my belt than last time I ran that gauntlet, I believe companies are likely to be even more conservative than they used to be, which was already comical. I don't believe I'm incapable or a detractor to a team, but the pressure to try and prove it in this economy and in this timeline feel... not really worth it exactly, especially when there's likely to also be pressure from management to move faster and take less time or affordance for actually thinking about what's being done. It feels like what I'm facing is a mountain that could be double the size it used to be, and that has a summit in the middle of a forest with no view.

Working on a small, existing, established product that can gradually be improved upon while aided by LLMs if necessary seems like the best place to be. Starting something new (not that I have any legit worthwhile ideas or the resources to pursue them) seems pointless because people are shitting out poorly designed AI slop constantly and poisoning the market.

But what do I do instead? Trades programs are already waitlisted or require another 5-10 yrs to earn something worthwhile. Transitioning to anything else seems like a tenuous prospect. I fear that unless I get incredibly lucky, the last job might have been the last chance to earn a living that made any sense.

To be clear, I'm not giving AI more credit than it's due, and this article describes the reasons for that which are valid, but the perception that they're magic engineer replacers is more important than reality. At least I can hope that the housing market completely crashes or enough crap code is produced by opportunists that I can ride it out, but other than that it's a confusing time.

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