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License plate reader searches should require a warrant

andrewpwheeler.com

361–370 of 423 posts

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah sure. Parallel construction doesn't exist. Government surveillance is completely benign as long as they can't bring a criminal case with the information, right? I mean, we have rules now, so it's all good.

Parallel construction doesn't seem to me to be ordinary practice. That's my impression anyway.

I agree parallel construction doesn't seem to be ordinary practice. But AFAIU the term originates from post-9/11 NSA warrantless surveillance--both mass and targeted--where information was often systematically "leaked" to the DoJ and FBI. Until recently states didn't have large agencies dedicated to collecting evidence that is patently illegal to use in criminal cases, and generally in a deeply grey area generally, which they then pinky promise not to share.

But "anonymous sources" and similar evidence laundering has been in a thing in domestic law enforcement since SCOTUS started imposing prophylactic procedural protections in the 1960s. It was just ad hoc. But now states like Texas and California have built their own intelligence agencies which are beginning to push the boundaries of both mass and targeted surveillance similar to the NSA, and through ubiquitous digital communications and third-parties like Flock, police departments have also organically grown their own whisper networks that allows them to systematically and efficiently do what was ad hoc before.

That said, unlike the post-9/11 NSA parallel construction which was knowing and deliberate and something of an open secret at both the NSA and parts of Federal law enforcement, I think state law enforcement personnel believe they're well within the law. And interestingly I was recently speaking with an FBI financial crimes investigator about this stuff and he had never even heard of the term parallel construction. Building durable parallel construction processes requires maintaining plausible deniability, and the best way to do that is to keep most law enforcement personnel and, preferably, all district attorneys out of the loop and ignorant to what's going on. That happens by high-level officials quietly tasking a handful of mid-level people to launder the evidence. And in that sense parallel construction will never be ordinary practice the way people assume as the vast majority of law enforcement personnel will never see it happening, or at least recognize it for what it is, except for when they do it themselves in an ad hoc manner.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#362
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t believe any warrant is required for police to follow someone, so they wouldn’t even need the tracker! Interesting how you reframe that, because the police would absolutely need a warrant to put a GPS tracker in your car. This kinda proves everyone's point about this sort of thing, an officer following you is clearly different from the omnipresent surveillance dragnet enabled by Flock cameras.

Yeah legally there might be a difference, not my area. The question was whether I’d be fine with a GPS tracker and the answer is I have opted in already with numerous GPS tracking devices, both in my car and on my person. I don’t believe for one second that someone against cameras would be okay with a personal police shadow everywhere even if the Supreme Court has okayed that.

> I don’t believe for one second that someone against cameras would be okay with a personal police shadow everywhere even if the Supreme Court has okayed that.

Well that's not the tradeoff. It's impossible for everyone against cameras to get their own police shadow everywhere. When it takes that much labor they are forced to keep the average amount of surveillance down to reasonable levels.

We could also talk about restricting that kind of surveillance without a warrant, and stuff, but it's such a smaller problem. I wish my biggest surveillance risk was police pouring money down the drain to follow me around.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the ability to scale up a bunch of officers sitting around writing down literally everything they see is limited in comparison. It can only be so invasive and “always-on” everywhere. Throwing up a few dozen flock cameras costs a fraction of that and scales incredibly quickly.

It is a curious ‘small government’ instinct that wants government capabilities to be restricted from ever becoming efficient or scalable, even though the population and economy and complexity of the world the government is tasked with regulating scales up. But often the inverse argument is used in respect of private corporations. Obviously it would be unreasonable to expect Google to vet every ad and YouTube video up…

> It is a curious ‘small government’ instinct that wants government capabilities to be restricted from ever becoming efficient or scalable

Efficiency would be great if it was used to save money. But surely you've heard of the Jevons paradox. This kind of cheap surveillance does not make the government smaller and it has all kinds of bad effects.

> even though the population and economy and complexity of the world the government is tasked with regulating scales up.

Car stuff isn't changing much. They don't need better tracking of where you drive.

> But often the inverse argument is used in respect of private corporations. Obviously it would be unreasonable to expect Google to vet every ad and YouTube video uploaded tot heir platform, and make responsible editorial decisions about which ads and content to show to children. Surely to allow them to scale arbitrarily large we must make sure not to overly burden them with regulations.

Well, vetting every video would not be reasonable even at a small scale business with the same business model.

While vetting every ad is very possible.

I don't think I've seen anyone claim youtube is unable to vet ads if they significantly wanted to?

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both allow cops to track people as they travel without a warrant.

People don't have any expectation that the license plate on their car cannot be seen by law enforcement. People do not expect their phones to be feeding their locations to cops and they do not expect things hidden on them unknowingly to exist. But it really stretches believability that people have no idea that cops check license plate. Or that cops communicate with each other about license plates to coordinate search…

Do you really believe the level of effort for human LEO to track license plates is the same as a bunch of AI enabled cameras?

Do you think the level of effort to correlate that data between people is the same with a bunch of people with excel as it is with an AI agent?

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't have any expectation that the license plate on their car cannot be seen by law enforcement. People do not expect their phones to be feeding their locations to cops and they do not expect things hidden on them unknowingly to exist. But it really stretches believability that people have no idea that cops check license plate. Or that cops communicate with each other about license plates to coordinate search…

You should read SCOTUS opinions instead of forming beliefs based on media tropes, duh.

I’d like it if you provided relevant quotes from these opinions that support your assertions. It’s not very persuasive otherwise. These cases are highly nuanced.

Also, you’re being kind of a dick. Knock it off.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#367
let the butter churn! Y'all forget that USNORTHCOM is active and has been operating since 10/1/2002. It is a brave new world. In this post 9/11 world let us not forget that we voted away our right to privacy for the greater good! I for one welcome our robot overlords, how else will we survive?

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#368
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one expected doorbell cameras to join a mass surveillance network, but later the manufacturers added that feature. Plenty of people did? That was obviously one of the end goals for cloud connected devices pushing recordings to a remote side for processing and storage. Especially when stuff like facial recognition was implemented server side. I would be highly surprised if this was not pitched in the first intern…

I don’t doubt it was intended by the manufacturer, but do you think the average customer knows this? Every normal person I’ve ever told this to, that their Ring cameras can also be looked through by the police, has looked at me like I’m crazy. I’m sure some people would buy a Flock camera for their porch, but I’d bet many others wouldn’t if they truly knew what they were signing up for. The Super Bowl commercial that…

> do you think the average customer knows this?

> I give some grace to the regular population on this topic

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#369
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why a police cruiser can sit in a public space (or even a private one) and write down licence plates and descriptions of passers-by with pen and paper, or record everything around them with dashcams and bodycams for later use, but when it comes to cameras on a pole this would require a warrant. Going back through police officers' notes or cruiser dash cam videos and tracking a car's movements by it…

If the police stationed officers constantly at major intersections doing that, the outcry would be no less than having cameras do it. Also, if it's the police, at least they're part of the community and people can monitor and have an effect on what they do. When it's a private company, none of that is true.

If the police stationed officers constantly on every street corner ...

Crime would drop to near zero, people would be happy

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't need to. They know where you've been, where you're going, and what your intentions are. It's a far more intimate and effective surveillance tool. As a bonus, it's also a propaganda vehicle and an implement of mass psychological manipulation.

And you require a warrant to get access to that data... Supreme Court recently ruled that you need a warrant for even the geofence data lookup from 3rd party recently.

That's because that lookup is especially broad. And I'd guess the supreme court justices are worried about getting caught in one. For anything else, like downloading one person's videos, you don't need a warrant.
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