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License plate reader searches should require a warrant

andrewpwheeler.com

301–310 of 423 posts

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#301
post #2

It frustrates me when people call them license plate readers. I guess you need to call them something, but they are general-purpose internet connected cameras. They will do whatever their firmware tells them to do, and could be reprogrammed at any time by anyone with access. No one expected doorbell cameras to join a mass surveillance network, but later the manufacturers added that feature. Why do we treat these came…

Don't know if it's true (cuz lazy), but I recently read that they will start tracking phone signals an linking them to plates.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#302

Any idea why this is so much less acceptable to people in the US than in the UK? In the UK we've had ANPR for more than twenty years and AFAICT there's no mass controversy surrounding it. It catches people with no licence, no insurance, who are wanted in various serious crimes. I'm surprised at the difference in attitude. (I am aware that the UK has a less-than-stellar privacy track record... but nonetheless it's cur…

Because we value freedom above all else, thankfully.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This amounts to an argument against ever using general purpose computing devices to accomplish anything. You could say the same about literally any privately operated device. ‘I don’t know why they call these things cell towers. They do whatever they are programmed to and can be reprogrammed by anyone with access’ Heck the same applies to non electronic things too ‘why do they call it a house? It’s a general purpose…

I think the point is these aren't just license plate readers. For example, are they recording fingerprintable bluetooth or other wifi signals of occupants of cars that are going by?

Best cover your car in tinfoil then.

(To be clear: the government requires you to display a license plate on your car. They do not require that you broadcast an identifiable Bluetooth signature as you drive around. If you happen to do so - something you have a choice to avoid - it seems disingenuous of you to say ‘I don’t want anyone to take any notice of the Bluetooth and WiFi signatures I choose to broadcast’.)

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#304

There is another middle option that I would have liked to see the author discuss: requiring either a case number or a CAD ID, instead of a "search reason". In my conversations with law enforcement (mostly at management level, chiefs of police), all of them have had reasonable-sounding objections to a warrant requirement for a search, but zero of them have been able to come up with a reason why a case-or-CAD ID requir…

This is already the current status quo on paper. I bet the majority of the cases IJ identified of mis-use the PDs already had this policy. (That is the same standard when you do a background criminal history check in New York, need to put in a case number, FYI.) I did not want to go into too many technical details on the post -- I think you could do an AI audit at the point in time of the search query to prevent peop…

It isn't at all the current status quo. There may be some kind of departmental guideline in some cases, but it's neither required by the software, nor mentioned in the Lexipol Media Group policy template that commonly gets purchased by police departments once the public starts asking them what their ALPR policy is. A quick spot-check of eyesonflock.com finds that, of those audit logs that are still available to the public, case or CAD IDs are still not commonly required.

The thing about CAD/case IDs is that it makes the use of junk cases in audit trails more detectable vs. the current situation.

Third-party audits would be great, but I haven't been able to find an ideal third party to do the auditing. Locally, police commission groups quickly got co-opted through political processes into being both toothless and extremely deferential towards the police department. I wouldn't trust state auditors any more than local auditors. That's why we pushed to force audit logs to be made publicly accessible in SB1516 6(3)(a): https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2026R1/Downloads/Meas...

> Part of the issue is policies on paper are not effectively enforced. So people saying "just have policy X to prevent abuse" is a non-answer.

Policies on paper are where you start. I wholeheartedly agree that they are not by themselves sufficient, but they have to exist, and to that end, you want the strictest possible policies that are politically achievable. I don't believe that a warrant requirement is politically achievable.

We had several deep conversations with ACLU on data retention limits. Data retention limits were one of the things they fought hardest for in this state. We supported that, but focused more of our energy on a different aspect (which we didn't succeed at, unfortunately). ACLU's point of view is that longer data retention makes it easier to profile the movements and activities of politically sensitive groups. It's true that it does, but ALPR vendors' ability to directly access and control the data means that there are numerous trivial workarounds for targeting any demographic or political group, regardless of data retention limits.

I remain of the opinion that these systems simply don't need to exist at all, which makes the answers to a lot of these questions a lot easier. Violent crime has overall been trending downward for a long time, we live in one of the most peaceful societies in human history, we already know how to reduce property crime and crime directly related to poverty, and roving armed gangs are not a sensible immigration policy. We're twisting ourselves in knots trying to figure out how to make an inherently unsafe technology safe to meet a need that we don't have.

Flock exists because YCombinator and subsequent investors saw an opportunity to use public grant money to pay to bootstrap the collection of an enormous amount of really valuable data on Americans.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#306

Any idea why this is so much less acceptable to people in the US than in the UK? In the UK we've had ANPR for more than twenty years and AFAICT there's no mass controversy surrounding it. It catches people with no licence, no insurance, who are wanted in various serious crimes. I'm surprised at the difference in attitude. (I am aware that the UK has a less-than-stellar privacy track record... but nonetheless it's cur…

It's mass surveillance that people can feel. Combined with ICE using it.

Our police overlords are not so polite.

In the UK there's severe limitations on freedom of speech, which would never be accepted in the US. The countries have very different values.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#307
post #193

Warrants for historical search with warrant-free flags for ongoing issues seems like a nice middle ground. Convincing. Good article. It seems that would easily impede a lot of abuse and it’s straightforward to believe that historical data is rarely so urgent as to not require a warrant. A matter of defining historical as a sufficiently old enough thing but that seems feasible.

> warrant-free flags for ongoing issues

Why couldn't they get a warrant if it's an ongoing issue? It should be really easy, and warrants like that wouldn't take a long time to get usually.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Scale actually matters Is this actually born out in Court Cases? Warrantless Surveillance by NSA seems to be blanket legal for example.

Yes, this is why a warrant is required to access carrier location data for a phone but one is not required to have a police officer physically following you around town despite the outcome (the police get a trace of your location) being the same. Cell phone location data is too easy and cheap for the government to scale and so courts have found that it demands tighter protection. See: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2017/…

"Yes, this is why" is in reference to scale here? I don't see how it's "why". Cell phone tracking follows you where a police officer physically cannot follow you (on private property, for example). This is why, not because of scale.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like omnipresent surveillance, just say it.

I don't have to like it to know it's perfectly legal.

You should go read the United States v Jones concurrence and try to figure out why five Justices disagree with you. Have some curiosity about the world!

You can also read Carpenter v United States for some background thoughts on why it's not as simple as Justice Fluidcruft condescendingly imagines it to be.

In fact if you're really curious, you could even look at the state cases that are bubbling their way up like Commonwealth v McCarthy.

If only everyone were as confident and simplistic as you, we could avoid all these darn cases :(

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