Earlier quoted context omitted.
for somebody who's out of the loop: what's the fuss over the ABC conjecture?
This is a reference to Inter-Universal Teichmüller Theory. Its Wikipedia article gives a good overview ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-universal_Teichm%C3%BCll... ). In maths lasting disagreements over a published "proof" are rare, but IUTT is an example of it. What the article misses: There is a more recent, ongoing effort to formalize the published proof in Lean under the name of "LANA" (e.g. see https://zen.…
What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
111–120 of 189 posts
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#112It seems intuitive that finding a counter-example might be easier than proving a generality, since you're starting from a concrete goal ("build a foo that has properties X, Y & Z") that you can branch out from, identify sub-problems, etc. Proving a generality seems much more difficult since you don't know what you are trying to build, although I suppose in some cases you can prove it by proving that it's impossible t…
One hesitation I have with this idea is that proofs themselves can be modeled as mathematical objects. So if you have a machine which can construct examples then we just view the proof as an example, and it should be good at constructing them. Maybe this is naive.
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
That means the post was good, even though the blurry math images are illegible. But yes, as a Fields medalist he is an expert on LLMs.
> But yes, as a Fields medalist he is an expert on LLMs. Not what I was claiming, but since you are, feel free to expand on this.
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#114Disclaimer: I only scanned the article quickly; I might be re-stating something already in the article. We have just got some very strong evidence about the way in which LLM-based systems solve mathematical problems and this evidence supports what many have already suspected including myself. Here's what I'm talking about. On 10 August Anthropic released an article [1] claiming that: An unreleased research version of…
LLMs are indeed very special compared to past efforts at automated theorem proving. The search tree for proofs is enormous, even short textbook exercises (i.e. a few dozen lines of Lean) were difficult with GOFAI techniques. Adding a few orders of magnitude to your compute budget barely moves the needle, since the search space increases exponentially for every line of the proof. Now LLMs have produced multi-thousand…
It depends what kind of automated theorem prover we're talking about. I'm not an expert on proof assistants like Lean. I am an expert on Resolution-based automated theorem provers and those can be implemented efficiently. For example, the SLD-Resolution based theorem prover used as the interpreter for Prolog (the logic programming language) runs in linear time and the cost of completing a proof is dominated by the cost not of the prover itself but the complexity of the theorem that is being proven. In more plain English when you run a Prolog program the cost that really matters is that of the program, not of the Prolog interpretation.
Now, I know that Resolution-based theorem provers aren't typically used in the same way as proof assistants let alone LLMs; but that is more of a historical accident than a limitation of the technique. There's no reason why one couldn't search for a proof of the Riemann hypothesis expressed as a Prolog program and using a Prolog engine. It's just not where most peoples' heads are these days.
>> Now LLMs have produced multi-thousand line Lean proofs. This is impossible by simply "try everything and see what sticks". LLMs are able to target their efforts to only promising proof strategies. Yes it helps that they work at superhuman speed, so they can try thousands of strategies where a human might try a dozen. But their results cannot be explained only by compute increases; they need genuine mathematical insight.
I understand the argument and I believe it has merit, but that's just to say that LLMs are trained to generate likely text, like I say in another comment. That is enough to explain the much improved ability to search quickly and efficiently (the LLM just has to generate text that looks like a proof; no need to actually carry out the steps of a proof) without recourse to 'genuine mathematical insight'. Which should be easy to believe because it's much harder to explain what 'genuine mathematical insight' is and where it comes from than it is to explain where the ability to predict likely text comes from: it's how LLMs are trained.
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#115Disclaimer: I only scanned the article quickly; I might be re-stating something already in the article. We have just got some very strong evidence about the way in which LLM-based systems solve mathematical problems and this evidence supports what many have already suspected including myself. Here's what I'm talking about. On 10 August Anthropic released an article [1] claiming that: An unreleased research version of…
This is not "brute-force" though. It's an iterative search algorithm. You learn things at each iteration. You also don't search blindly. You use "something" (heuristics, experience, intuition) to come up with "ideas" at each iteration. You don't try 650 random programs. You try 650 different ideas each learning from the results of previous trials. Yes this is the "Universal Problem Solving Algorithm". It's actually t…
But, learn what? All those ideas where wrong. How does an LLM "learn" from incorrect proofs that it has generated itself? What does it learn? Can you explain how this mechanism works?
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#116This is really an argument about test-time scaling, even though the post never uses the term. These days "test-time scaling" mostly means letting the model talk to itself for longer, but the first genuinely surprising results came from plain sampling. Google's AlphaCode generated millions of candidate programs and filtered them down to a handful of submissions, which beat the average human programmer in 2022, before…
> Google's AlphaCode generated millions of candidate programs The trick is avoiding the infinite monkey problem. If your problem is amenable to RL, then you probably don't even need an LLM, Monte Carlo Tree Search gets you there with less expensive hardware.
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#117For a list of AI accomplishments in mathematics see https://mathoverflow.net/questions/502120/examples-for-the-u... - or a candidate list here: https://aimath.robertj1.com/ . Many have observed an affinity of AI to the search for counterexamples - or examples. Looking at afore lists, something much more sociological crosses my mind: There is a hunt for answering prominent, clearly stated problems. I'm not a mathemati…
I know nothing about mathematics, but are there not famous mathematicians like Terence Tao who utilize AI and are obviously interested in theory building?
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
LLMs are indeed very special compared to past efforts at automated theorem proving. The search tree for proofs is enormous, even short textbook exercises (i.e. a few dozen lines of Lean) were difficult with GOFAI techniques. Adding a few orders of magnitude to your compute budget barely moves the needle, since the search space increases exponentially for every line of the proof. Now LLMs have produced multi-thousand…
>> LLMs are indeed very special compared to past efforts at automated theorem proving. The search tree for proofs is enormous, even short textbook exercises (i.e. a few dozen lines of Lean) were difficult with GOFAI techniques. Adding a few orders of magnitude to your compute budget barely moves the needle, since the search space increases exponentially for every line of the proof. It depends what kind of automated t…
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#119This is really an argument about test-time scaling, even though the post never uses the term. These days "test-time scaling" mostly means letting the model talk to itself for longer, but the first genuinely surprising results came from plain sampling. Google's AlphaCode generated millions of candidate programs and filtered them down to a handful of submissions, which beat the average human programmer in 2022, before…
You might think so, but I tried asking ChatGPT to solve one of the puzzles from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_(game_show) (which a Python script can brute-force on my 12-year-old hardware in half a second) and it made an elementary arithmetic error that's decidedly not human-like.
Re: What sort of maths are LLMs good at?
#120This is really an argument about test-time scaling, even though the post never uses the term. These days "test-time scaling" mostly means letting the model talk to itself for longer, but the first genuinely surprising results came from plain sampling. Google's AlphaCode generated millions of candidate programs and filtered them down to a handful of submissions, which beat the average human programmer in 2022, before…
> Sampling is what AI is good at. You might think so, but I tried asking ChatGPT to solve one of the puzzles from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countdown_(game_show) (which a Python script can brute-force on my 12-year-old hardware in half a second) and it made an elementary arithmetic error that's decidedly not human-like.
But ask them to enumerate all the intermediate steps required to create a formal direct proof, and it will loose attention and forget important details as they go out of their input window size. You need to combine them with a proper logical problem solver to get the best parts of both.