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License plate reader searches should require a warrant

andrewpwheeler.com

221–230 of 423 posts

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spying on the American public shouldn't be cheap or efficient. We shouldn't abandon our freedom to make the fearful feel better.

People either have privacy in public or they do not, but I don't know anyone who seriously claims that there's an expectation of privacy on public roads. What freedom are you talking about?

>I don't know anyone who seriously claims that there's an expectation of privacy on public roads

Hello, I'm here.

Practically, we do have privacy in public pre-AI. We weren't entitled to complete anonymity, but the ability to track every single person at all times was impossible.

Now that AI and sensors are making it possible, people are saying "No, I don't want that to be the norm".

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#222
You should raise your voices now. For Indians, its too late. Our Indian Government used facial recognition system at mass level in recent students protests and now police is showing up on their homes.

It's better to raise the voice now for you guys than to say sorry later.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#223
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why a police cruiser can sit in a public space (or even a private one) and write down licence plates and descriptions of passers-by with pen and paper, or record everything around them with dashcams and bodycams for later use, but when it comes to cameras on a pole this would require a warrant. Scale actually matters. Things that are generally OK at a small scale become problematic at larger scal…

Scale is more about efficiency and cost, though. Plenty of people want more policemen patrolling the streets.

I don't, 95% of what US cops do is harrass and extort people despite most of these people causing nobody else any concern or even a second glance or thought.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#224
post #3

Either it needs a warrant or it’s fully open and people can start creating websites showing the movements of local politicians. This middle ground that municipalities try to carve out where it’s fully open to police without a warrant but not subject to FOIL laws doesn’t appear tenable for much longer. There’s been too many cases of police officers stalking exes, poking around the data for fun and such so it’s clear p…

I don't understand why a police cruiser can sit in a public space (or even a private one) and write down licence plates and descriptions of passers-by with pen and paper, or record everything around them with dashcams and bodycams for later use, but when it comes to cameras on a pole this would require a warrant. Going back through police officers' notes or cruiser dash cam videos and tracking a car's movements by it…

>> A difference in degree (of usefulness and speed), not in kind.

No.

Automating the system is ABSOLUTELY a difference in kind. The argument "it is the same thing" is reductionist beyond absurdity.

"Quantity has a quality all its own."

Scaling and automation is a difference in kind in every field, and especially in surveillance of a population. To deny it is to assert the Industrial Revolution, the Computer Revolution, and the Internet had no effect on anything.

A cop sitting by the road operating a speed trap time or radar/laser gun can trap enough speeders to moderate the traffic, and individual speeders get few tickets. Implementing the "same" thing with cameras everywhere and timing toll-booth arrival/departure times and issuing tickets automatically would result in the majority of drivers getting multiple speeding tickets every trip (just based on measured average speeds on most roads exceeding the posted limit).

Your example proves the opposite of what you say.

Having a cop personally observing and writing down license plates requires resources - a decision to prioritize those specific resources for that specific investigation on that day. It is a real decision to surveil people in that way. It means people will ONLY be surveilled in that way when it is important.

In contrast, constant, ubiquitous, and near-cost-free surveillance means people will be surveilled all day, every day.

What was once applied only to exceptionally serious crimes is now available to target any citizen for any petty crime. It enables exactly the kind of silent targeting for which every authoritarian government lusts — the appearance of law and order with the ability to target any specific "troublemaker" at will.

With such surveillance, there is no need for an authoritarian to make false charges or highlight a protest. Jack protests, they don't like it, just say "go after Jack". They go to the cameras, find a bunch of petty crimes, and prosecute. Jack now has endless trouble if not jail, and the regime carries on like nothing happened.

If, as you say, you don't understand why it is not different, stop being reductive, look at the larger system.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#225
post #2

It frustrates me when people call them license plate readers. I guess you need to call them something, but they are general-purpose internet connected cameras. They will do whatever their firmware tells them to do, and could be reprogrammed at any time by anyone with access. No one expected doorbell cameras to join a mass surveillance network, but later the manufacturers added that feature. Why do we treat these came…

This amounts to an argument against ever using general purpose computing devices to accomplish anything. You could say the same about literally any privately operated device. ‘I don’t know why they call these things cell towers. They do whatever they are programmed to and can be reprogrammed by anyone with access’ Heck the same applies to non electronic things too ‘why do they call it a house? It’s a general purpose…

I think the point is these aren't just license plate readers. For example, are they recording fingerprintable bluetooth or other wifi signals of occupants of cars that are going by?

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#226
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn’t track. In his example, observing license plates is perfectly legal without a warrant. Looking in your phone is not. These are not at all alike.

Then it should be legal for citizens to deploy their own network that allows anybody to track any license plate?

Of course? We already have private entities doing this today. Private toll road operators such as United Bridge Partners already administers camera systems that collect license plates for toll payments. I would assume parking lot operators also do this, and private citizens could create a nonprofit network too if they wanted.

Are you suggesting that people couldn’t do that for some reason?

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#227
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why a police cruiser can sit in a public space (or even a private one) and write down licence plates and descriptions of passers-by with pen and paper, or record everything around them with dashcams and bodycams for later use, but when it comes to cameras on a pole this would require a warrant. Scale actually matters. Things that are generally OK at a small scale become problematic at larger scal…

>Scale actually matters Is this actually born out in Court Cases? Warrantless Surveillance by NSA seems to be blanket legal for example.

Yes, this is why a warrant is required to access carrier location data for a phone but one is not required to have a police officer physically following you around town despite the outcome (the police get a trace of your location) being the same. Cell phone location data is too easy and cheap for the government to scale and so courts have found that it demands tighter protection.

See: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2017/16-402

It comes up fairly often here since the HN audience tends to be mostly programmers/computer people, but it's really important to remember that the law is not a series of rules a computer can directly evaluate to determine whether something is or is not legal; judges frequently use their judgement to balance the assumed intent of laws and the competing interests of various parties. I don't say this to you specifically but really just the HN audience as a whole :)

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#228
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scale is more about efficiency and cost, though. Plenty of people want more policemen patrolling the streets.

If we simply mandated that everyone install an app on their phone so that the government can track them scales very well. The people without the app would probably be criminals,

Define criminal ? In the USA Under laws like the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793 and 1850, an enslaved human who escaped was considered a criminal.

Sheltering humans running away from slavery was also a crime .

It was illegal for black Americans to learn to read and write. Seeking education made them a criminal.

Buying or selling a beer made you a criminal during prohibition.

Do you see how easy it is to make someone a criminal?

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#229
A warrant isn't an effective safe guard unless you trust the government to only prosecute actual crimes. The US federal government has demonstrated, explicitly, that it is willing to use law enforcement for political ends and will charge private citizens for political reasons (like the reflecting pool case).

Now is not the time to be giving more power to the executive or its policing functions.

Re: License plate reader searches should require a warrant

#230
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A nationwide APB is not an investigative activity.

Neither is writing down license plates.

Yes, it is. If you were investigating a business or building, you would document vehicles coming and going.
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