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Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

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Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#191

Post by nonethewiser »

drdaeman wrote: post #188
nonethewiser wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stop using morally charged terms made up by future monopolists Lets not gloss over this claim. Being: “Stealing is a morally charged term made up by future monopolists.” I strongly disagree. Stealing is not a made up term and property rights are foundational for any society. Your take is at least sensationalist if not malicious.

No, and we collectively had this decades ago already. “Stealing” instead of “infringement” is originally MAFIAA language intentionally (ab)used to encourage emotional reaction despite original owner not losing their copy. If you broke into a data center, pulled a hard drive and drive off with it - that’s stealing. If you accessed a copy of some information - that’s infringement, unauthorized access, or some other vio…

One problem. He said stealing in general is a made up term.

Do you think stealing is real?

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#192

Post by nonethewiser »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #186
nonethewiser wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stop using morally charged terms made up by future monopolists Lets not gloss over this claim. Being: “Stealing is a morally charged term made up by future monopolists.” I strongly disagree. Stealing is not a made up term and property rights are foundational for any society. Your take is at least sensationalist if not malicious.

There's nothing foundational about the idea that data can be owned. It conflates these things: - This is about me - I created this - Neither of the above, but according to some story I get to control who sees it Maybe some of those ideas are worth building into our society, but let's not pretend that The Code of Hammurabi gave a damn about intellectual property. IP was invented by the church so they could censor edit…

Data?

Stealing pertains to more than just data. I think you agree with me that stealing isnt a made up term.

Please reread what he said. He didnt say “distilling” was morally charged made up term by future monopolists. He said “stealing.” Thats insane.

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#193

Post by nonethewiser »

theyliesoeasily wrote: post #183
nonethewiser wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stop using morally charged terms made up by future monopolists Lets not gloss over this claim. Being: “Stealing is a morally charged term made up by future monopolists.” I strongly disagree. Stealing is not a made up term and property rights are foundational for any society. Your take is at least sensationalist if not malicious.

They definitely stole the data to make the models, but they do not say that they stole the data to make the models, but they do say that others using their outputs for unauthorized purposes is stealing. Do you see the point?

You miss the point. Do you think “stealing” is a made up term? That is what he said. He didnt say “distilling models”.

Dont you agree thats either sensationalist hyperbole or a genuinely crazy idea?

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#194

Post by matheusmoreira »

nonethewiser wrote: post #191
drdaeman wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and we collectively had this decades ago already. “Stealing” instead of “infringement” is originally MAFIAA language intentionally (ab)used to encourage emotional reaction despite original owner not losing their copy. If you broke into a data center, pulled a hard drive and drive off with it - that’s stealing. If you accessed a copy of some information - that’s infringement, unauthorized access, or some other vio…

One problem. He said stealing in general is a made up term. Do you think stealing is real?

"Stealing" of non-rivalrous goods?

I don't "think" it's not real. I know.

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#195

Post by theyliesoeasily »

super256 wrote: post #184
theyliesoeasily wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely stole the data to make the models, but they do not say that they stole the data to make the models, but they do say that others using their outputs for unauthorized purposes is stealing. Do you see the point?

Crawling the internet and dumping it to disk is not "stealing".

Then distilling models and deobfuscating reasoning traces isn't.

Mass downloading copyrighted works is. Which they did. Aaron got threatened with 20 years, they got pentagon contracts.

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#196

Post by nonethewiser »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #194
nonethewiser wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem. He said stealing in general is a made up term. Do you think stealing is real?

"Stealing" of non-rivalrous goods? I don't "think" it's not real. I know .

Reread what he called a morally charged, made up term by future monopolists. Stealing. Not distilling, not stealing “non rivalrous goods.” Just stealing.

Do you agree with what he actually said?

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#197

Post by rossjudson »

Zambyte wrote: post #127
otterley wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing is not a word that applies only to physical objects.

Please provide an example of an action legally considered "stealing" that does not involve stealing physical objects.

Unauthorized removal of bitcoin from a wallet, depositing into another?

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#199

Post by gruez »

breezybottom wrote: post #187
gruez wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fair use law isn't supposed to apply to commercial activity. No, otherwise there would be a straightforward "non-commercial" clause. Instead there's a 4 part test, which takes usage (commercial or not) into account, but doesn't hinge solely on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

Spirit vs letter

The law says:

>... In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

>1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

>...

If they really meant "non-commercial use only", they sure did spend a lot of words to not say that.

Re: Stealing Reasoning Traces from Proprietary LLM APIs

#200

Post by otterley »

rossjudson wrote: post #197
Zambyte wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide an example of an action legally considered "stealing" that does not involve stealing physical objects.

Unauthorized removal of bitcoin from a wallet, depositing into another?

Doesn't even have to be Bitcoin. Could be an ordinary set of bank accounts.
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