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How Claude marks AI-generated content

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Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#292
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. FN rates are cute, but FP rates will ruin an academic career or a student's work/further study choices if their content gets marked erroneously. Surely the answer is a sequence of marks? Keen to see if they are doing something SynthID-esque?

Do they care about false positives? As long as it’s even somewhat reliable that’s enough for them to prevent training on their own slop. I think this is a big reason to do this that’s overlooked.

Good point. But if that were their only purpose, there'd be no need to share it with anybody. In fact, they'd get the best results by not mentioning it.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#293
I don't know how this watermarking works, but I don't need to in order to understand some things that a lot of this conversation seems to be missing.

First, the article doesn't talk about adversarial usage. As in, it's not claiming to be proof against various techniques of watermark removal (inserting words, rewriting with a different model, manual paraphrasing whether minor or extensive, etc.) It might handle some things and not others, but "I could trivially defeat this!" is not a gotcha; they haven't made that claim.

Second, basic information theory tells you a lot about what is or isn't possible. Watermarking is information. You need degrees of freedom to store that information. You can even estimate various sources of space in bits (often fractional bits.) To a first approximation, longer text has more bits of space. Language matters -- a rich (aka messy) language with lots of potential synonyms has more space. That goes for human language as well as the difference between human and programming languages. (Most programming languages have much less flexibility to them than most human languages.)

The details of what space you make use of are interesting, but speculative. In the English sentence "Ellie spat in his eye", you could look at it at a word level and say that swapping "Mary" for "Ellie" is a lot more damaging to the meaning than swapping "face" for "eye", so there are more bits of freedom in the latter. For coding, `for (int i = start(); i Also, does this degrade model output? Yes. It reduces the bits of freedom available to the model for producing the signal. Does that degradation matter in practice? That's totally dependent on exactly what is happening, and will likely change over time and across different purposes. I hope we're past the point where people believe that setting temperature to zero produces "perfect" output in some sense. (Or should I say flawlesslesslesslesslessless output?) It used to be useful for reproducibility, at least, but my understanding is that it's no longer even good for that? Anyway, reproducibility != quality.

There are a lot of things that could be going on here. The article doesn't claim very much, just that they're encoding a signal in the output that can be extracted later. How robust the signal is in terms of the FP/FN rates is unknown. The resilience (resistance to destruction) is unknown. The impact on the output quality is unknown. Even the question of whether this will make AI slop less sloppy is unknown; maybe this means we'll see a little less exact repetition of "I have the whole picture now" and instead it'll sometimes be "Now I see the entire picture"? Can we dare to hope for an occasional "Ok, this time I got it, boss"? That would be a (very minor) quality improvement.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#294

The more they fiddle with the autocomplete system, the more they move away from the autocomplete faithfully producing the completion I need. The more it makes sense to move to an open weights model not served by them.

The pull is strong, but it will take a few generations of hardware before 1 TB becomes attainable without needing 100k, but more like 10l (kinda like the value of a car, defendable as a job expense).

Anthropic has this strong repulsive effect in the way they operate, I wonder if they'll be around for long, it's hard to say at this time. The competion is fierce, so there isn't much room for shenanigans at this stage.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#295
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they care about false positives? As long as it’s even somewhat reliable that’s enough for them to prevent training on their own slop. I think this is a big reason to do this that’s overlooked.

Good point. But if that were their only purpose, there'd be no need to share it with anybody. In fact, they'd get the best results by not mentioning it.

That’s true. But they probably want to be able to identify other models slop as well. And with the laws popping up, it makes sense to do it the way they are.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#296
post #257

Is the detection mechanism going to be open, free, and possible to run locally without prostrating to an opaque third-party company that will do whatever they want with the text content provided (including using it for training), and take no responsibility in case of false-positives for which there can exist no proof or evidence against by the victim? This is another useless, if not actively harmful, performative EU…

It is of course a stupid regulation, but the upside is that it will probably accelerate growth in usage of open models that are not adversarial towards the user.

I like your optimistic way of thinking. There is a lot of truth to it.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#297

This is outrageous. I hope only Anthropic will do this. Are they going to disclose at least the specific Unicode whitespace characters used for the watermark? Or will they use some other trick? If I heavily edit LLM output, will this still hold the watermark? You really can't make this stuff up, it doesn't make any sense.

I don't think they are using any invisible Unicode or metadata stuff.

What happens is that AI selects similar words based on a random process.

Something like "The company had a large/big/substantial advantage".

It chooses between these words, and over a longer piece of text, the pattern will start showing, like a "choice A → choice C → choice C → choice B → choice A".

The normal-looking text will actually be a fingerprint living in the form of statistics.

I think Claude will be sharing these patterns to third parties for AI detection.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#298
post #171

No mention of what data they are specifically encoding. Will it be like printing dots, traceable to the exact account that generated the text?

From what I read in the comments, the model will be more biased towards certain words that otherwise would would have a very simmilar chance of appearing (e.g. very simmilar words that would not really alter the meaning of the text). If this actually works the way I think, that's a really sneaky way to hide data in data. It's clever, but hostile towards the user.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#299
I guess this is where our true colors show. There's a significant contingent of HNers who always dunk on LLM text detectors and claim that they can't possibly work, that they ruin careers, etc. But now that a lab says "OK, we'll add a real watermark", the reactions are overwhelmingly that it's still somehow wrong.

Why do feel so entitled to being able to pass LLM-generated text as our own? I get that a lot of techies aren't good at writing. I also see a lot of tech hustlers who like to use LLMs to fake human connection and compassion - I've gotten LLM-generated recruiting emails that talked at length about how the recruiter "valued" my work. Just because we found a "cheat" button doesn't mean it's wrong for others to want to know.

Yes, LLMs are great. So is transparency. If you think an LLM writing is your new superpower, wear that badge with pride. It might mean you will lose some business from LLM haters and win some other business from like-minded customers. C'est la vie.

Re: How Claude marks AI-generated content

#300

I notice the "Limitations" section talks about how content only at some point touched by Claude may return a positive, and content that returns a negative may still be Claude generated. But I really would have liked for them to state explicitly that entirely false positives where a piece is fully human-written may still be marked as generated, because too many institutions with the power to ruin someone's life over t…

I think that false positives are inevitable due to the method of watermarking being embedded in the text itself. The output is intended to mimic human writing, therefore it's entirely conceivable that a human could by chance write text that contains the watermark. The odds may be extremely small, but it's not something you could ever guarantee.
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