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Saying No

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Re: Saying No

#61

Post by cgriswald »

SoftTalker wrote: post #49
Aurornis wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The alternative is also not getting what they want: a cold yoga space. The alternative was using the phone call with the manager to calmly explain the situation and try to negotiate. The blog kept talking about using "no" as a starting point for negotiating, then when the negotiation opportunity peaked he refused to listen to the other person and gloated about it. The second half of the book's advice (the negotiate…

It seems to me that the person who wasn't listening was the manager who ignored the reasonable reasons for not wanting a cold room and made up some bullshit about compressors.

We have only one side of the story and he didn’t give us any details of what the manager actually said. He also mentions the manager said something about “costs”. The author’s wants are reasonable but that doesn’t mean the manager’s wants aren’t also reasonable.

Re: Saying No

#62

Post by [deleted] »

Aurornis wrote: post #43
nkrisc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To not be a pushover. The alternative is also not getting what they want: a cold yoga space. So this is probably the better outcome.

> The alternative is also not getting what they want: a cold yoga space. The alternative was using the phone call with the manager to calmly explain the situation and try to negotiate. The blog kept talking about using "no" as a starting point for negotiating, then when the negotiation opportunity peaked he refused to listen to the other person and gloated about it. The second half of the book's advice (the negotiate…

[deleted]

Re: Saying No

#63

Post by [deleted] »

Aurornis wrote: post #60
SoftTalker wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the person who wasn't listening was the manager who ignored the reasonable reasons for not wanting a cold room and made up some bullshit about compressors.

The blog literally says "I didn't care to understand" to demonstrate that he was not interested in listening. I would not assume the manager was making things up. He might have truly believed what he was saying. In these situations if you take the time to understand, you can get a lot of leverage by getting to the root of their concerns and then building a pathway to address them mutually. If they thought it was goin…

[deleted]

Re: Saying No

#64

Post by msteffen »

madrox wrote: post #28

This is poorly written with an unclear outcome. This starts as talking about how to make 1:1s more productive. It ends with, I must presume though it is unclear, losing a lease with no backup. This is not more productive. Compromise is about figuring out how to give everybody what they want while letting go of how it happens. Turning on half the ACs is a great compromise. Whatever happened at the end is not. To be ge…

I think the keys here are

1. It’s not clear who wrote the note, and they didn’t leave contact info or any opening to a negotiation. If the note had said “this AC must stay on at all times, please call 111-222-3333 with any questions - building engineer” that would’ve completely reversed the morality of story for me. But the note asserts authority by making this non-negotiable demand (which is the part that seems patronizing to me—I agree with TFA here) and doesn’t justify that authority at all, no “I’m the owner” or anything.

2. The first step of finding a compromise is knowing what everybody wants. The author of TFA didn’t seem to do that in the story, and his apparent lack of curiosity about the compressor does not reflect well, I agree, but neither does a threat from whoever wrote the note.

My wild guess here is that the person who wrote the note worked in maintenance and was unhappy about the building warming and cooling and wanted a stable temperature. The resolution may well be that the author has to find a new place to do yoga, but if he’s not interested in air-conditioned yoga, and the building’s authorities aren’t interested in tenants who want the AC off, that outcome might have been inevitable anyway.

Re: Saying No

#65

Post by montebicyclelo »

Apparently, the French typically start with "no" because it leaves them room to say "yes" later, which is harder to go back on.

> “Answering ‘non’ gives you the option to say ‘oui’ [yes] later; [it’s] the opposite when you say ‘oui’, you can no longer say ‘non’!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/travel/article/20190804-why-the-french...

Re: Saying No

#66

Post by fwipsy »

madrox wrote: post #28

This is poorly written with an unclear outcome. This starts as talking about how to make 1:1s more productive. It ends with, I must presume though it is unclear, losing a lease with no backup. This is not more productive. Compromise is about figuring out how to give everybody what they want while letting go of how it happens. Turning on half the ACs is a great compromise. Whatever happened at the end is not. To be ge…

Part of negotiating is understanding when no compromise is possible. Cancelling the rental seems like the best outcome here, although I don't like the author's tone much.

Re: Saying No

#67

Post by jstummbillig »

serf wrote: post #46
jstummbillig wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should probably be a bit more surprised. There is a class of people (specially) in business, who threaten a lot habitually and don't act on it, if you call the bluff. The reason is that a lot of people do cave. "Free" wins. If it does not work, they just pretend nothing happened.

If a professional group of people are wasting their time and attention on you then it's fruitful to imagine what resources they may have to leverage against you, I don't think that's hard to argue. Few people cave when there are lots of eyes on them., and less people make empty threats with a bar full of spectators - that's why punches get thrown. Regardless : 'I'm a renter' is by no means a strong argument unless yo…

> what would you do as a land owner

Nothing. You would do nothing.

You want both to stay, because you also don't enjoy losing any amount of money, and not doing anything is most likely going to get you that.

From the "I'll get you thrown out"-party, it's the same tactic again, directed at the landlord this time. Moving buildings is neither fun nor cheap. Your employees would have to go somewhere else, there might not be anywhere else close by that is convenient to you or as nice/familiar as the place you got, some people might quit over any annoyance this brings too.

Nobody enjoys this shit. There are contracts. There are lawyers. It's never fun to do these things and it can all be dragged out for a long time. Being a somewhat bigger renter is (fortunately) not something that helps you in a court of law.

> Regardless : 'I'm a renter' is by no means a strong argument unless you have a very specifically worded renter agreement

It's a very strong default argument, unless you have a specifically worded agreement, that would strip you of a potential right.

Re: Saying No

#68

Post by onli »

kstrauser wrote: post #55
serf wrote: post #36

I felt zero sympathy after the author decided to ignore any possible valid reasoning under the cemented position of 'well I pay rent' -- that's not maturity. Further more, my rule: the more someone tells you how mature their position is and how child like you're being the more the odds increase that the only problem is that your opponent doesn't have a mirror or an ounce of introspection.

I agree, especially mentioning the compressor as being some ignore-worthy issue. I can imagine the owner saying something like “this is a desert and that unit’s designed to be powered on continuously, and when you flat-out turn the thing off it breaks the hardware. Stop turning it off.” And on that note, has no one involved heard of a thermostat?

He described he pressed a button to turn it off. Here isn't a single AC unit out there that breaks from that, I'll claim hat confidently until proven otherwise.

Re: Saying No

#69

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

I'd say accepting "No" as an answer, is more important.

If someone says "No" to me, and it's something that I really, really want, then negotiations can begin. If the other party is impervious to compromise, then it's incumbent upon me to either "live with it," or "flee the scene" (or call Vinnie and Bugsy, to do some negotiating for me).

My experience -especially these days- is that people see "No" as either a personal affront, or to be discounted and ignored, because it isn't what they want to hear.

"No." is a complete sentence. I don't owe anyone an explanation (unless we start negotiating). I need to accept that, from others.

Re: Saying No

#70

Post by oceanplexian »

> There are two ACs on the second floor which we keep turned off because the cool air prevents natural sweating and muscles from loosening.

Why do so many supposedly educated people from developed countries have completely pseudoscientific beliefs about A/C?

It’s so bizarre and frankly, embarrassing to even read. You will sweat exactly the same as you would at 30% RH at 72 degrees on a cool day outdoors. There’s nothing mystical about the air conditioner at work here.

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