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Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

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Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#111

Post by npsimons »

akkartik wrote: post #43
whatshisface wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've not seen this at all. Well, there is always everyone's favorite grumpy uncle Linus. :) I think it ends up being 'ok' for him to do it because nobody questions the importance of a kernel being perfect.

Linus being flame-y is not the same thing at all. He's not telling people to RTFM afaics.

I was about to say this same thing; Linus is extremely tame by most people's standards, and when he does get snippy, he tends to reserve vitriol mostly for those who should know better. If he does take the time to criticize a "noob", it's not because they are a beginner, it's because their idea is flat out wrong. Take the whole git/C++ email exchange (http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643...) and notice how Linus didn't get flame-y until the OP did. Or the whole Con Kolivas/Ingo Molnar scheduler debacle: there were perfectly good reasons why Torvalds chose Molnar's implementation over Kolivas's.

The truth of the matter is, Linus doesn't really have time to respond to every hare-brained idea that people have for the kernel. Add to that he's been doing this for a while. If you feel maligned, you might want to consider a) Linus is probably right b) if you really want to hack on the kernel, you should know better and c) if you want due consideration from people more busy than you, you should give your idea due consideration yourself.

Edit to followup: until you've lurked on LKML for a while, or heard an interview, or, I dunno, maybe actually had a live conversation with Torvalds, you are probably being lead to believe he's an asshole by people with bones to pick with him (eg, people who should know better who he told off). As someone else pointed out farther down thread, how many times have we seen links to a single email/blog post by Torvalds without the context of the person he is responding to?

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#112

Post by Zelphyr »

sp332 wrote: post #103

Chances are, mr or mrs open source elite, you have been on the receiving end of this in your life. Exactly, and that's why they do it to others! That may be their default (not consciously-chosen) behavior because it's what they got used to.

That seems to be an odd, and ironic flaw in the human mind. We often do to others what was done to us. Sexual abusers are often themselves past victims of sexual abuse.

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#113

Post by debacle »

msbarnett wrote: post #108
debacle wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem like an activity that's rampant in the community in any fashion. I personally only recall it happening once, ever, and I've been a contributor to open source projects for almost ten years.

> This doesn't seem like an activity that's rampant in the community in any fashion. I personally only recall it happening once, ever, and I've been a contributor to open source projects for almost ten years. If a lot of other people are talking about the negative consequences of something you personally haven't experienced, generalizing outwards from your own experiences to conclude that something a lot of other peo…

This is something that one person has said happens, with no evidence, that many other people with equal credentials have said doesn't happen.

Without evidence, it's just talk.

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#114

Post by pbhjpbhj »

debacle wrote: post #35
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When in society did "Look at what this jerk is doing." become something unwarranted? // The point is here that it's assumed that the people making the pull request are attempting to make an honest contribution and the response they're getting is "look at what this jerk is doing". I don't think it's possible to give real life examples without making it possible to find the people involved. Clearly the author isn't w…

The author is coming from a point of view that I don't know if anyone else in the OSS world holds, and that the Internet doesn't seem to agree with. Without hard evidence, he's talking out his defecation hole.

What's your background Debacle?

This guy currently contributes to several OS projects http://mutedsolutions.com/about, https://github.com/derickbailey and has apparently been a developer for over 30 years in a range of environments. Whilst I don't find it impossible to imagine that he's made up the problem it seems doubtful on balance - what would he gain?

He says he's fallen in to the trap himself of making fun of others [apparently] honest contributions.

Yes, that's not an argument but this

>Without hard evidence, he's talking out his defecation hole. //

is fallacious reasoning. It is not the case that failure to present examples of pathological behaviour means that behaviour is a fiction.

If your position is true and indeed he is literally the only person to believe that sometimes OSS leaders have made fun of the code of other [attempted] contributors then it's interesting to speculate why that might be so.

One possibility of course is that those who deny it's a problem simply can't see it despite it being there.

Also, if we can accept him to be a "leader" then we now know at least one person that he's being critical of ...

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#115

Post by kmfrk »

rquirk wrote: post #98
kmfrk wrote: post #96

I don't see this in GitHub projects (so far), but this is the usual experience when asking for help on Stack Overflow or Freenode.

Nor do I. I've had lots of positive results on github, as puller and sender. The barrier to entry on github for sending a pull request is much higher than asking a "send me teh codez" question on Stack Overflow though. It's understandable that the more experienced contributers are burned out there. Rather than replying nastily maybe they should just leave the Eternal September that SO has become.

I think the CONTRIBUTING (sic) file in GitHub has also helped to put the onus on the repo owner to explain what is kosher, and what isn't.

The idea of a canonical ruleset exists mainly so people don't have to make vague references to "common sense" and such.

And I just don't see a lot of bad issues/pull requests out there, but the system still needs a managerial overhaul that scales, though. Better to nip the problem in the bud, before it downright breaks GitHub.

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#116

Post by [deleted] »

rquirk wrote: post #98
kmfrk wrote: post #96

I don't see this in GitHub projects (so far), but this is the usual experience when asking for help on Stack Overflow or Freenode.

Nor do I. I've had lots of positive results on github, as puller and sender. The barrier to entry on github for sending a pull request is much higher than asking a "send me teh codez" question on Stack Overflow though. It's understandable that the more experienced contributers are burned out there. Rather than replying nastily maybe they should just leave the Eternal September that SO has become.

[deleted]

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#117

Post by fijal »

jasonkester wrote: post #53

This isn't restricted to open source project leaders, or even open source developers. You'll find the same childish elitism in pretty much every field of human endeavor. Programmers certainly do it. Laughing at noobs and being mean to them is pretty much the sole purpose of IRC, unless I'm mistaken. Surfers do it. Climbers do it. I've even seen rocket scientists do it. The interesting thing is watching which members…

I wonder where do you take your experience from. I do pretty much all of what you described and while yes, there are definitely jerks around, there is no correlation between the level and jerkness. Maybe it's just hard to become "the best" while being a jerk, although I know quite a few world class climbers who are jerks and the best and who are humble dudes and the best.

In fact, we use IRC a lot for PyPy development and I think we're trying to be welcoming to other people, especially the newcomers, but then again, it's a self-judgement.

What I've seen correlation is the age (although there is definitely no rule here either). Typically, while you're being 16 and you climb say 7B, you think you're the best and you look from above towards people who climb 7As. And there are some people climbing 8Bs I know who are as bad as when they were 16.

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#118

Post by kmfrk »

stephengillie wrote: post #95
kmfrk wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially in "developed tastes" where you suddenly can't stand "inferior" * music * typography * movies * food * wine * art * fashion And so on and so forth. Of course, there is always someone out there who is better than you with better tastes, and people sometimes forget to see this as a humbling fact.

http://xkcd.com/915/

As insightful as it is, I think empty-quoting xkcd is not really conducive to an intelligent discussion.

It makes sense on reddit where people aren't encouraged to a one-track threaded discussion, but less so here where the discussion manages to flow pretty well at times.

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#119

Post by codex_irl »

keithpeter wrote: post #86
codex_irl wrote: post #68

I've called out more than one "leader / boss" out in meetings / code-reviews for being excessively mean & shaming noobs who are genuinely trying their best & are hungry to learn. Constructive criticism is a great thing, but telling someone they will never work again in this industry because they make a small CSS error on their first ever post-college project is another. I've been fired from one job for standing up in…

"I've been fired from one job for standing up in a meeting and calling the boss a self-important asshole & refusing to retract it." Well, yes, that would cause some difficulties and a slightly chilled air around the coffee machine where I work as well. There are ways of communicating the sentiment without making it easy for them to get rid of you...

I agree with you, but I did not really want to stay working for that guy anyways - it was no loss.

My take on working is that my employer is renting my time & skills to complete a job, they have every right to expect value for their money - but they don't own me, nor can they tell me when I am allowed to take a phone call, go for a lunch break, shout at me or demand that I work extra hours for no extra money.

As the wolf says: "I'm here to help - if my help's not appreciated then lotsa luck, gentlemen."

Re: Dear Open Source Project Leader: Quit Being A Jerk

#120

Post by sp332 »

Zelphyr wrote: post #112
sp332 wrote: post #103

Chances are, mr or mrs open source elite, you have been on the receiving end of this in your life. Exactly, and that's why they do it to others! That may be their default (not consciously-chosen) behavior because it's what they got used to.

That seems to be an odd, and ironic flaw in the human mind. We often do to others what was done to us. Sexual abusers are often themselves past victims of sexual abuse.

It's not especially ironic. Two things: when people are left to their own devices, they tend to imitate the people around them. And, people tend to favor themselves to be a good "end result", which reflects favorably on the environment which shaped them. In fact, to oppose the circumstances you came from is to oppose some part of your own nature. So, people tend to favor recreating themselves (because they prefer themselves) by recreating the environment they came from.

Edit: just found this example http://penny-arcade.com/2012/11/30

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