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Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

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Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#181

Post by BrianEatWorld »

balanceiskey15 wrote: post #23
untog wrote: post #4

I can't wait until the part where we all don't talk about gun control and carry on as usual. Sigh. EDIT: I see my post is being downvoted. I know that it may come across as insensitive to immediately leap to the gun control debate, but frankly I'm more angry than upset by this news. How many times does it have to happen? We have a good 48 hours of emotional outpouring and then everyone forgets it ever happened.

Well, why don't we bring it back to technology then? Everyday on HN there's this drone about the next Instagram or 37 Signals. Or who will produce better email or flamewars regarding the next dominant mobile OS. Time wasted, honestly (Oh yeah, 'I figured out project management, again.') Where's the debate on HN on how best to handle gun control in the U.S. using technology? Can this community not produce answers for…

I think this is the best comment in this discussion. Instead of relying on imperfect governance and enforcement to achieve a goal, which is rationally naive to begin with, why don't we take these imperfections as given and try to work out a solution?

What about security technology? Maybe if the school had smaller, less expensive and less obtrusive metal detectors? Improved inter classroom comm systems for coordinating lockdowns? Cheap, integrated access systems ensuring only qualified personnel and students access the campus?

On the margin, all these could improve the situation without the need for lofty dreams of a societal paradigm shift or pouring hours into a solution that is already exhibiting diminishing marginal returns.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#182

Post by ceejayoz »

code4life wrote: post #133
jacquesm wrote: post #56

The psychology behind the kind of people that could do a thing like this baffles me completely. Insanity doesn't begin to describe it. Parents should not have to worry about whether or not their children are safe in school. At the same time armed guards at school are not a solution either, then you might as well turn it into a mini prison. What a sad sad day. Even countries with gun control have instances like this (…

One way to reduce the possibilities of a crime like this is to reduce the centralized system of public education. My family home schools our children. It coincidentally helps solve this particular problem. (Perhaps it also reduces the likelihood that we spread viruses like the flu). Making public education more distributed by the use of technology could certainly help with security.

Unless you ban everyone from stadiums, malls, movie theaters, and other such venues where people congregate, I don't see how that'd do anything to reduce mass shootings.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#183

Post by king_jester »

gfosco wrote: post #140
untog wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I mean talk seriously . Even in the presidential debates, both candidates ran away from a serious discussion on the topic. I know it's divisive, I know people feel strongly about it, but it appears that no politician is interested in starting a real debate.

I don't know how anyone can seriously discuss gun control, as it's an impossible and naive goal. A majority of the really public shootings are done using weapons legally acquired by persons with no prior history. If you want to stop that, then you can't let anyone have a gun. There's absolutely no way to prevent people from losing it, so the focus should be on minimizing the damage and finding a good process for deal…

> The answer is probably more guns, not less. Any number of armed school personnel could have lessened this nightmare. If you're tasked with protecting children, shouldn't you be prepared for a gun fight?

Any number of armed school personnel could have made this situation WORSE by firing into a wild crowd in an attempt to attack the shooter, whom they might not even identify correctly in the first place.

Keep in mind that school personnel are NOT tasked with protecting children from violent assault threats. They are tasked with education and a kind of child care for 7-8 hours a day. School systems already have tremendous difficult providing support for larger scale issues that fall outside of those realms, and we shouldn't expect that arming school staff would make for anything other than a climate in which those weapons will be used against students. We already have enough problems with making school systems more like prisons, arming the staff is not a solution to fixing that.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#184

Post by btilly »

This is a tragedy, but why is it on HN?

From http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html we have:

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

That fits this story.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#185

Post by eik3_de »

JoeCortopassi wrote: post #129

Listen, there are two parts to this: 1. The horrible tragedy, and 2. The hopes to prevent this from happening again. If we are going to talk about this, we need to all fall under the assumption that we agree that this is both a very tragic act perpetrated by someone who is obviously disturbed/mentally ill, and that it is all of our desires to do what we can to make sure senseless acts of violence like this never happ…

Some data: In the US, there are about 3.45 homicides with firearms per 100,000 population per year. In Germany (where I live), this figure is 0.19, that is roughly factor 18.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#186

Post by wlll »

JoeCortopassi wrote: post #129

Listen, there are two parts to this: 1. The horrible tragedy, and 2. The hopes to prevent this from happening again. If we are going to talk about this, we need to all fall under the assumption that we agree that this is both a very tragic act perpetrated by someone who is obviously disturbed/mentally ill, and that it is all of our desires to do what we can to make sure senseless acts of violence like this never happ…

Option 3. Prevent widespread news coverage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4

Though that seems about as likely as "1.Disarm everyone".

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#187

Post by khuey »

bcoates wrote: post #81
grkballer44 wrote: post #39

Within a couple years this exact scenario will play out. A gunmen will talk in a crowded place loaded to the gills. Assault rifles, bullet proof vest, explosives hid around the building. He will pull out his gun and kill the poor unsuspecting first soul. After that initial shot someone with a concealed weapons permit is going to blow his brains out cutting his rampage short ( I truly hope the person who plays the her…

Attempted mass shootings that fail like that don't get nearly as much news attention... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Colorado_YWAM_and_New_Life...

That guy was working security at the event and was a trained (ex-)LEO. Most people who have their fantasies about using their concealed weapon to save the day don't have nearly that much training or preparation.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#188

Post by InclinedPlane »

onli wrote: post #136
InclinedPlane wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with gun control. Guns exist, that can't be stopped any more than preventing alcohol from existing (prohibition), and some bad guys will always have access to guns. Or knives, or diesel fuel, or explosives. Was the Oklahoma-city bombing a wake-up call for "explosives control"? Was the 2009 Chengdu bus-fire ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Chengdu_bus_fire ) a wake-up call for diesel control?…

If you look in the history of states which had a problem with gun-violence, you can see that banning guns actually works. After banning, destroying and controlling guns, the amount of massacres and murders falls down. One example of this is germany (i think in the 1970s), but you can look earlier or at the history of other countries to find examples for that. The situation over here is a tragedy, because all school s…

This is just bad statistics. School massacres are somewhat uncommon. If you look at a history of mass killings at schools in the UK then you'll see that the expected amount of time between them is actually longer than the time since the most recent large shooting, Dunblane, and today. Which means that we have no clue whether or not gun control has "worked" to prevent such things or not.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#189

Post by jlgreco »

king_jester wrote: post #162
JoeCortopassi wrote: post #129

Listen, there are two parts to this: 1. The horrible tragedy, and 2. The hopes to prevent this from happening again. If we are going to talk about this, we need to all fall under the assumption that we agree that this is both a very tragic act perpetrated by someone who is obviously disturbed/mentally ill, and that it is all of our desires to do what we can to make sure senseless acts of violence like this never happ…

If you believe that the shooter in this case was disturbed or had mental illness (I've seen no reports to conclude this, btw) then the first thing you would demand is 1) better mental health care facilities and treatments for the public at large and 2) universal health care systems to provide the least possible friction in accessing those mental health care services. Also, you don't have to be either for banning guns…

Is sanity really a possibility here? Sure, we don't have a diagnosis, at least yet, but I would say by definition this person was not sane. A mass shooting is no crime of passion.

It seems to me that there are two problems here. The first is that we suck at finding/handling the mentally ill. These mass shootings are rare, but the connection between crime and mental illness in this country is anything but.

The second issue is of course that we do a piss-poor job of keeping guns away from the people they need to be kept away from.

Ideally both issues should be tackled.

Re: Mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut

#190

Post by gnu8 »

dsl wrote: post #163
r00fus wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Disarm everyone, and 2. Allow everyone to carry weapons. Nice strawmen. There are obviously options in the middle, namely, increasing traceability of weapons and ammo and shutting down channels that where weapons are allowed to change hands anonymously. The proliferation of weapons is one thing, but the fact that these tragedies occur and we don't have a way to follow the chain back to the disreputable dealer wh…

Disreputable dealer? I absolutely agree, any car used in a drunk driving accident should be traced back to the dealer responsible, and they should be punished. If you can determine in advance who the "wrong hands" are, I'm sure the TSA would love to speak to you and dump buckets of money over your head.

Or cars used in any accidents. Thousands of people die in car collisions every year, accidental and intentional, whether they were drunk or sober, reckless or diligent, or just an innocent pedestrian or cyclist who happened to have bad luck that day.

A few days ago someone posted a web site called http://www.banthecar.com where they laid out detailed arguments for banning all cars, because of all the problems they cause, including accidental deaths. Obviously banning cars is not reasonable or realistic.

We have a process for who is and is not allowed to drive a car, and we are fairly comfortable with it, even though it still fails to prevent thousands of deaths. The process of firearm ownership could use some adjustments, but ultimately we cannot prevent all deaths. The best we can do is prevent those who are obviously unsuitable(1) from owning firearms, and ensuring we have a system to remove the rights of those who abuse them.

(1) this is very dangerous due to the history of gun control being used to enable racism and genocide. The criteria must be objective, not subjective.

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