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Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

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Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#181

Post by parsimo2010 »

datahack wrote: post #56

This is how higher education was done for literal centuries before moving to the written word. So it’s not exactly innovative to return to oral arguments. But what it does threaten to do is effectively abandon all the efficiencies of the written word. When higher education evolved into a mass system in the 1800s and into the 1900s, pure oral examination was looked at as super inefficient. A written paper could be han…

This is basically my thought- my school is considering all sorts of things to combat AI cheating, and most of them scale poorly. You can implement them and increase your reputation, but your tuition will have to increase to pay for a lower student/teacher ratio.

So we’re probably going to see a split- mass production schools that still act as job training for Industrial Revolution era jobs will keep doing what they are doing. Schools that want to keep their academic prestige will implement these inefficient safeguards and raise prices accordingly. Employers will distinguish between these two types of diplomas when there are enough options out there that are combatting cheating- much like in-person schools are generally valued higher than online educations, or how certain schools (MIT, Stanford) are valued higher then others. This might lead us to the transformation of higher education many have been anticipating, because the current system cannot remain as-is. We all thought technology was the thing causing the upheaval but AI has really accelerated things.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#182

Post by BoingBoomTschak »

jtafurth wrote: post #137
cm2012 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to be an adult functioning in society, being able to briefly talk about your ideas with strangers is important.

I doubt the question here is about willingness, but inability due to real medical conditions. Assuming real and sufficiently severe ADHD.

Then maybe you're not suited for the task. Most intellectual professions (keyword being profession, please don't bring up the lone mad scientist fiction thing) require the ability to communicate clearly.

If you're blind, you won't be a racing driver, that's just how it is.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#183

Post by wyan »

khazhoux wrote: post #154
talon8635 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always disliked public speaking and oral defense since I was a child, to the point of fairly profound anxiety. But please withhold you woe—these people are, as I am today, adults. Masters students. Coddling them and holding low expectations has proven to be a sort of “killing them with kindness” approach to handling modern youth. People need to be encouraged (and required) to do things they don’t like to becom…

Classic “get over it” condescension. Some people are unable to control their strong physiological reaction to in-person judgement. Go tell professional orchestra players who rely on propranolol to control their stage fright to just grow up and start becoming a “proper functioning adult.” https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hast.70031 https://www.thecrimson.com/column/a-night-at-the-symphony/ar...

Taking propranolol in this case is, in fact, an example of being a functioning adult, and a solution that also works for oral examinations.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#184

Post by Andrex »

bbminner wrote: post #59
vardalab wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I grew up in the former Soviet Union. Starting with ninth grade entrance entrance and exit exams were like that. I remember I had to take university physics exam just to be able to qualify for a consideration. It was fairly rough, but I think in a way, good system because it sifted out the wannabes early on.

Same. The focus on written exams rated blindly and uniformly at the US higher education system always puzzled me. I guess that's the only way to scale things up when you pay professors and teachers living wages?

The blind aspect (I would assume) is meant to cut down on favoritism and discrimination. With the US I understand how that would come about.

Whether it succeeds in that goal is a separate topic.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#185

Post by dfdydx »

scarlehoff wrote: post #111
bonoboTP wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oral exams are still common in Germany and many European countries in case of smaller courses taken by 20-30 students in a semester, and sometimes even in larger courses, and the task of examining is then split among multiple professors and lecturers. In Hungary it's a pipeline. You go in a room, you pick a piece of paper out of a hat, which gives you some task or topic to prepare for. Then you sit down at a desk (th…

I'm not familiar with the German universiry system, but I think a 1 hour, 2 professors (or one professor and one PhD student) would be impossible to scale. A class of about 100 students could take an entire month! (or better, 2-months of professor-hours!)

One big difference I observed between the US and $HOMECOUNTRY is that US colleges require a lot of courses with little credit, so a normal college year is N courses x K credits per courses, N large, K small. In $HOMECOUNTRY it is typically N small, K large - think instead of having Calc IV, Trig whatever, Algebra 2 and Introduction to Proofs, you have a single "Mathematics" course that last a whole year, not just a semester.

Since each course needs its eval, assessment is a function of N, not N*K or K. Much easier to scale if there is ~5 evals per student per year than ~20.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#186

Post by tekla »

khazhoux wrote: post #154
talon8635 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always disliked public speaking and oral defense since I was a child, to the point of fairly profound anxiety. But please withhold you woe—these people are, as I am today, adults. Masters students. Coddling them and holding low expectations has proven to be a sort of “killing them with kindness” approach to handling modern youth. People need to be encouraged (and required) to do things they don’t like to becom…

Classic “get over it” condescension. Some people are unable to control their strong physiological reaction to in-person judgement. Go tell professional orchestra players who rely on propranolol to control their stage fright to just grow up and start becoming a “proper functioning adult.” https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hast.70031 https://www.thecrimson.com/column/a-night-at-the-symphony/ar...

Welcome to the adult world. When I get worked up from a interaction, by BP goes into the "holy shit you need to be in the emergency room right now before your heart explodes". And not metaphorically, I have been sent to the emergency room and admitted about a half dozen times for this.

I take my meds so that my heart does not explode from talking to a person. So yeah at some point, deal with it.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#187

Post by lll-o-lll »

talon8635 wrote: post #106
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

I have always disliked public speaking and oral defense since I was a child, to the point of fairly profound anxiety. But please withhold you woe—these people are, as I am today, adults. Masters students. Coddling them and holding low expectations has proven to be a sort of “killing them with kindness” approach to handling modern youth. People need to be encouraged (and required) to do things they don’t like to becom…

I used to throw up and faint as a youngster, when having to do talks. Was unable to call people on the phone for years. Anxiety is a bitch.

However, the only way out is through. I confidently speak in front of 100’s regularly. I can pick up the damn phone (still a twinge of anxiety, but nothing like it was). The cure that works just seems to be “do it until it’s mundane”.

As an aside, it’s vital from the career perspective. You can’t let fear, no matter how extreme it feels, stop you. It’s a terrible cliche, but still true “no courage without fear”.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#188

Post by paulorlando »

Good to see.

Related, I've moved to requiring regular in-class handwritten quizzes. Just a blank piece of paper to start, with the questions on the board. The practice forces students to recognize whether they are learning specific topics.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#189

Post by JumpCrisscross »

datahack wrote: post #56

This is how higher education was done for literal centuries before moving to the written word. So it’s not exactly innovative to return to oral arguments. But what it does threaten to do is effectively abandon all the efficiencies of the written word. When higher education evolved into a mass system in the 1800s and into the 1900s, pure oral examination was looked at as super inefficient. A written paper could be han…

> A written paper could be handed in and graded without lining everyone up in front of a panel

It can also be graded blindly. That allows for removing–or at least mitigating–biases in evaluation.

Re: Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

#190

Post by seb1204 »

cloudie78 wrote: post #168
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

Thanks for sharing this, a good example that people can grow and adapt. Some need a push and support but it's possible.
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