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Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

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Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#11

Post by re-thc »

margalabargala wrote: post #3
varispeed wrote: post #2

Why people are excited about Intel barely matching already outdated CPUs of the competition? Shouldn't we be concerned that the company instead of aiming for the leap is producing legacy hardware destined for landfill? Wake me up when Intel produces something groundbreaking.

Comments like this one remind me of all the people saying "China can't invent things, they can only copy the US" 20 years ago. Like, we're comparing a new Dell to a Mac released only 4 months ago. How did you feel about the Mac Neo then, and now? Is it also legacy hardware destined for the landfill?

> Comments like this one remind me of all the people saying "China can't invent things, they can only copy the US" 20 years ago.

We still get these comments. Now about AI. China can only distill and are still years behind. Well well...

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#12

Post by [deleted] »

geerlingguy wrote: post #5
margalabargala wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this one remind me of all the people saying "China can't invent things, they can only copy the US" 20 years ago. Like, we're comparing a new Dell to a Mac released only 4 months ago. How did you feel about the Mac Neo then, and now? Is it also legacy hardware destined for the landfill?

Not only that, the efficiency (FP64, HPL) is also beating all the M4/M3/M2/M1 systems I've tested besides the M4 Mac mini: https://github.com/geerlingguy/top500-benchmark#results I think the bigger news is Intel's made a chip that isn't just pushing clocks to hit some performance number, they've actually tuned clocks for efficiency... which also leads to much better battery life. And the fan on the system in the orig…

[deleted]

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#13

Post by oofbey »

MBCook wrote: post #8
bhouston wrote: post #4

The improved efficiency is great! The Apple Neo was still 2x faster for graphics and around 1.4x faster for single core cpu. And remember the Apple Neo is running an iPhone CPU that is much slower than the M series. It is strange that this chip is so crazy efficient though. I would love to know the details of exactly why it is? It seems like some new tech or process? I do want 1.5x battery life for free out of my nex…

Apple has been working ruthlessly on battery efficiency for a long time because of the phones and their tendency to minimize battery sizes on Macs for thinness. The exact design of the cores, how they’re scheduled, the way background stuff is handled on MacOS. All of it. The chips are made on a fantastic process too, but that alone isn’t it. For example they’ve been putting the ability to drop refresh rate really low…

I think the Top500 benchmark is biased here. It’s a supercomputing benchmark which means it’s going to heavily weight SIMD and float64 performance, which are things that rarely matter for everyday computing. SIMD has uses in the real world - image or video editing, data crunching, graphics. But consumers basically never use fp64 any more, and so many modern chips have next to zero performance on them. That could easily skew the numbers in intel’s favor.

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#14

Post by MBCook »

re-thc wrote: post #10
bhouston wrote: post #4

The improved efficiency is great! The Apple Neo was still 2x faster for graphics and around 1.4x faster for single core cpu. And remember the Apple Neo is running an iPhone CPU that is much slower than the M series. It is strange that this chip is so crazy efficient though. I would love to know the details of exactly why it is? It seems like some new tech or process? I do want 1.5x battery life for free out of my nex…

> And remember the Apple Neo is running an iPhone CPU that is much slower than the M series. We really need to get over generalization like "phone CPU". Times have changed. Phone or not really isn't the focus. Per core the A series (cough phone) isn't that much slower than equivalent M series. It's literally the same family just with some extra features, more power, etc.

I suspect that the comment is more about this not being Apple’s best standard consumer CPU for computers, which would be the M5 (though to your point that’s also in iPads).

It’s good Intel can match anything while staying cool and efficient. That’s a great step. But I’d like to see them match the M5.

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#15

Post by GeekyBear »

geerlingguy wrote: post #5
margalabargala wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this one remind me of all the people saying "China can't invent things, they can only copy the US" 20 years ago. Like, we're comparing a new Dell to a Mac released only 4 months ago. How did you feel about the Mac Neo then, and now? Is it also legacy hardware destined for the landfill?

Not only that, the efficiency (FP64, HPL) is also beating all the M4/M3/M2/M1 systems I've tested besides the M4 Mac mini: https://github.com/geerlingguy/top500-benchmark#results I think the bigger news is Intel's made a chip that isn't just pushing clocks to hit some performance number, they've actually tuned clocks for efficiency... which also leads to much better battery life. And the fan on the system in the orig…

Efficiency is one thing.

Efficiency and performance is another.

We've long known that pushing clock speeds results in diminishing efficiency, so it's about time we see Intel stop pushing the clocks (and power) so hard that the chip melts down and the battery drains quickly.

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#16

Post by lowbloodsugar »

geerlingguy wrote: post #5
margalabargala wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this one remind me of all the people saying "China can't invent things, they can only copy the US" 20 years ago. Like, we're comparing a new Dell to a Mac released only 4 months ago. How did you feel about the Mac Neo then, and now? Is it also legacy hardware destined for the landfill?

Not only that, the efficiency (FP64, HPL) is also beating all the M4/M3/M2/M1 systems I've tested besides the M4 Mac mini: https://github.com/geerlingguy/top500-benchmark#results I think the bigger news is Intel's made a chip that isn't just pushing clocks to hit some performance number, they've actually tuned clocks for efficiency... which also leads to much better battery life. And the fan on the system in the orig…

Ok so Intel managed to make a 20W TDP chip that gets 6.x Gflops/W. Call me back when they’ve got a chip that still gets 6.x Gf/W with a 200W 1,200Gflop package like the M3 next on your list. This little fellow is only 50% more efficient than my aging M1 Max!

It’s great that they are making progress. Competition is good. They certainly need good news right now. I have exactly one intel cpu in my house in a NUC I got off eBay and it’s about to be replaced by my M4 mini. My other x86 are Zen (threadripper, 5800x3d, 5950s).

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#17

Post by oofbey »

re-thc wrote: post #11
margalabargala wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comments like this one remind me of all the people saying "China can't invent things, they can only copy the US" 20 years ago. Like, we're comparing a new Dell to a Mac released only 4 months ago. How did you feel about the Mac Neo then, and now? Is it also legacy hardware destined for the landfill?

> Comments like this one remind me of all the people saying "China can't invent things, they can only copy the US" 20 years ago. We still get these comments. Now about AI. China can only distill and are still years behind. Well well...

Really curious to see how ByteDance’s 10T model works out.

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#19

Post by geerlingguy »

oofbey wrote: post #13
MBCook wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has been working ruthlessly on battery efficiency for a long time because of the phones and their tendency to minimize battery sizes on Macs for thinness. The exact design of the cores, how they’re scheduled, the way background stuff is handled on MacOS. All of it. The chips are made on a fantastic process too, but that alone isn’t it. For example they’ve been putting the ability to drop refresh rate really low…

I think the Top500 benchmark is biased here. It’s a supercomputing benchmark which means it’s going to heavily weight SIMD and float64 performance, which are things that rarely matter for everyday computing. SIMD has uses in the real world - image or video editing, data crunching, graphics. But consumers basically never use fp64 any more, and so many modern chips have next to zero performance on them. That could easi…

I run a number of other benchmarks for a better comparison (linked from my blog post: https://github.com/geerlingguy/sbc-reviews/issues/111).

The Intel chip holds its own for multicore in less bursty workloads, where the fans help.

Re: Can Intel finally beat ARM on performance per Watt?

#20

Post by geerlingguy »

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #16
geerlingguy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, the efficiency (FP64, HPL) is also beating all the M4/M3/M2/M1 systems I've tested besides the M4 Mac mini: https://github.com/geerlingguy/top500-benchmark#results I think the bigger news is Intel's made a chip that isn't just pushing clocks to hit some performance number, they've actually tuned clocks for efficiency... which also leads to much better battery life. And the fan on the system in the orig…

Ok so Intel managed to make a 20W TDP chip that gets 6.x Gflops/W. Call me back when they’ve got a chip that still gets 6.x Gf/W with a 200W 1,200Gflop package like the M3 next on your list. This little fellow is only 50% more efficient than my aging M1 Max! It’s great that they are making progress. Competition is good. They certainly need good news right now. I have exactly one intel cpu in my house in a NUC I got o…

Yeah, the first step is they realize pushing clocks is not the most important thing; second step is to apply that to other chips they make too! I want to see more desktop and server chips getting closer to Arm efficiency.
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