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"Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

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Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#91
post #73
post #13

The answer to all these "if coding is easy" questions is that coding isn't programming (to put it in Lamport's terms). Encoding your ideas into a programming language is easy. Understanding that your ideas are bad is hard. You have clients with multiple devices connecting to your backend simultaneously, while you mediate their interactions with your partner systems. Their versions might not be up to date. It's a dist…

Nope, coding was still the hard bit. Every failing programmer would jump into architects or prod management but not the opposite way.

Usually you don't have an option other than leaving, most organisations don't let seniors keep coding and nothing else.

Either move up the ladder or leave.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#92
post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

After 30+ years in the industry the absolute best programmers I know never spoke to any customers, like ever. so bullshit comment all around. I’ve been coding for 30+, have obscene salary and do not wear any “additional hats” or talk to any “customers.”

Understanding requirements means talking to customers. A customer can be anyone, even other devs that consume your code/product.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#93
post #47
post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

> Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with those customers. That's like saying "building a car is not hard, building a real car that you can use and that passes regulation is". IOW, writing code is hard in every reasonable context.

Your analogy breaks down because code is not heavily regulated as cars are.

This is worth saying precisely because of this difference - people see huge amounts of bad code generated by LLMs and think it is equivalent to carefully written code because the results look similar at first glance and they don’t bother to read it.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#95
Unpopular opinion: I fully believe that anyone who says "code was never the hard part" was an irresponsible coder who perhaps never had to work for themselves.

No matter how long you spend on architecture, no matter how carefully you plan your features, if you are an actually good developer there are choices that emerge only from the first draft of the code — things that you could do better, broader ideas that suddenly emerge and change your view of your own work, abstractions that become possible once you internalise the project through writing it, realisations that a requirement is unscalable, unworkable or unsafe, etc.

Nobody ever finds all those things only in the planning stage in any piece of code of consequential size or functionality: if it was easy, we'd all be doing waterfall development like 1970s consultants or using StP like 90s consultants, and none of those other ideas about coding would ever have emerged.

LLMs will just write the code. They will never have the rest of that experience. And I think any coder who doesn't have a visceral feel for what I said above is just bad at it.

"The code was never the hard part" is just edgelord AI evangelists masking denial with a pithy mantra. The code, its capabilities, the tooling choices, it's all indivisible from all the other hard parts.

But then these are often also the people who think they can use AI song or image generators to do the bulk of the work and "add the finishing touches". They also think "taste is all that is left" when the thing that gets us paid is not just our taste, it's our responsibility for and to our work.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#97
post #55

No, code was always difficult. To be precise, it depends on the domain. The people who could actually write algorithms or core implementations were always a minority. Programmers like me mostly did copy-paste from Stack Overflow or assembled libraries. It's not that code wasn't difficult—it really was. In CRUD apps, about 70~80%of the work was building the same thing over and over, so once you got familiar with it, m…

If you’re struggling at formal thinking, coding will be hard for you. I’m not talking about designing software with higher concepts, like thread, network IPC, web application routing, gui,… but more simpler one like basic data structures (list, tree, maps, graphs,…), algorithms (search, sort, balancing trees,…), and paradigms (procedural, functional, oop, relational,…).

I’ve met a lot of programmers where those concepts where only words and not something they have understood. A snippet of code is either something they have to learn or copy, it’s not something they can fluently manipulate. It’s the difference between having to use a dictionary and sample phrases and speaking the language fluently. The former is a chore, while you don’t even notice the latter.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Writing code is not hard. Writing code has a minimum IQ requirement; a significant fraction of the population will essentially never be able to code by themselves. That labor supply limitation is what's kept programmer salaries relatively high.

Writing code doesn't have a notably higher (if at all higher, vs lower!) IQ requirement compared to some of the basic components of EE or MechE work. Programmer salaries have been driven up by the ability to write-once-sell-globally and the dramatic profit margin difference between that and, say, producing chips where there's a much higher fixed cost due to the need for more real material, tooling, etc. Many of those…

Salaries are a product of supply AND demand. Supply of good programmers and EE/MechE is low because it requires above average intelligence and a lot of education, while demand for software has been much higher than demand for EE/MechE. Now that the demand side might invert.

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#99
I'm not insulted. I actually agree with that even when I was doing some more "hardcore" low level system programming.

Figuring out what code to write and what not to write was always hard.

The code would come out easier the more time I spent thinking and designing and talking about it with others.

of course, YMMV

Re: "Code was never the hard part" is an insult to all programmers

#100
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with those customers. That's like saying "building a car is not hard, building a real car that you can use and that passes regulation is". IOW, writing code is hard in every reasonable context.

Your analogy breaks down because code is not heavily regulated as cars are. This is worth saying precisely because of this difference - people see huge amounts of bad code generated by LLMs and think it is equivalent to carefully written code because the results look similar at first glance and they don’t bother to read it.

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