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“Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

blog.senko.net

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Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#41
post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

>Writing code is not hard. Writing code has a minimum IQ requirement; a significant fraction of the population will essentially never be able to code by themselves. That labor supply limitation is what's kept programmer salaries relatively high.

Writing code doesn't have a notably higher (if at all higher, vs lower!) IQ requirement compared to some of the basic components of EE or MechE work. Programmer salaries have been driven up by the ability to write-once-sell-globally and the dramatic profit margin difference between that and, say, producing chips where there's a much higher fixed cost due to the need for more real material, tooling, etc. Many of those roles require a much higher-than-baseline-skill, but it pulls up the compensation competition for almost everyone else too. (Though even then there are a lot of unglamorous, line-of-business, internal-tools-programming work that's not paid particularly well even in a lot of parts of the US far from the big tech companies.)

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#42
post #26

LLMs are the invention of the loom. Code is being industrialized. Yes, there always will be artisanal weavers and a smaller number of them get paid a lot more money to do this by people who can afford it. Everyone else either started operating a loom or did something else. Automated looms are now making mass amounts of textiles but the artisans are no longer doing the physical act of weaving. The artisans come up wit…

Easy on the cocaine. There are no credible AI code bases on GitHub.

nah. my company (not a tech company)'s stack is ai generated and it has created credible value.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#43

I agree, the whole 'developers don't code' AI defense was pretty ridiculous. I also concur that development is going to get a lot harder. Anyone that has successfully used AI coding tools knows that you can get massive productivity increases but now I have to figure out how to get a bunch of hyper active child like coding entities with memory deficiencies to build stuff without going off the rail and introducing mass…

>get a bunch of hyper active child like coding entities with memory deficiencies to build stuff without going off the rail and introducing massive security problems or building something completely mismatched to the requirements

Development is essentially becoming management.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#44
I guess my impression using these tools daily is that it hasn't diminished the need for my own technical expertise. The conversations I have with it are highly highly technical, and to me the insights come from both sides, I see things the LLM doesn't, and the LLM sees things I don't. It writes a lot of bugs that I have to spot, and writes designs that aren't correct. (This isn't a criticism, I do the same). I think the ideal world version of this stuff is complementary, but the current insane bubble economics mixed with the insane religious fervor make that unpalatable to the leading AI companies. (Like, I think Sam Altman said that anything below a trillion dollar IPO valuation is a "non-starter".) So, "nice coding tool", even if that's the BEST and most realistic outcome, is just not going to do it for them.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#45
"Code was never the hard part" misses the point but so does this blog post. This blog post from 2011 is worth reading and really cuts into the middle of the dreads-of-programmer.

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pr...

  Don’t call yourself a programmer: “Programmer” sounds like “anomalously high-cost peon who types some mumbo-jumbo into some other mumbo-jumbo.”  If you call yourself a programmer, someone is already working on a way to get you fired.  You know Salesforce, widely perceived among engineers to be a Software as a Services company?  Their motto and sales point is “No Software”, which conveys to their actual customers “You know those programmers you have working on your internal systems?  If you used Salesforce, you could fire half of them and pocket part of the difference in your bonus.”  (There’s nothing wrong with this, by the way.  You’re in the business of unemploying people.  If you think that is unfair, go back to school and study something that doesn’t matter.)

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#46
This is dishonest. Nobody said "coding is easy" in a void. They said "code isn't the hard part" - in the context of LLMs. The obvious implication being that the actual speed of writing code wasn't the bottleneck. The implication is not that it's easy to think of what to write, or that any of the other parts of coding are easy.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#47
post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

> Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with those customers.

That's like saying "building a car is not hard, building a real car that you can use and that passes regulation is".

IOW, writing code is hard in every reasonable context.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Writing code is not hard. Writing code has a minimum IQ requirement; a significant fraction of the population will essentially never be able to code by themselves. That labor supply limitation is what's kept programmer salaries relatively high.

Writing code doesn't have a notably higher (if at all higher, vs lower!) IQ requirement compared to some of the basic components of EE or MechE work. Programmer salaries have been driven up by the ability to write-once-sell-globally and the dramatic profit margin difference between that and, say, producing chips where there's a much higher fixed cost due to the need for more real material, tooling, etc. Many of those…

[deleted]

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#49
post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

> The gigantic salaries paid to the most prolific employees is not due to their ability to write code. It is due to their ability to interrogate the shit out of the customer until they finally reveal the true requirements.

That doesn’t describe any devs I know, especially not in the old days. Interrogating customers and bringing back requirements was the job of management (who got big salaries, too.)

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#50

I agree, the whole 'developers don't code' AI defense was pretty ridiculous. I also concur that development is going to get a lot harder. Anyone that has successfully used AI coding tools knows that you can get massive productivity increases but now I have to figure out how to get a bunch of hyper active child like coding entities with memory deficiencies to build stuff without going off the rail and introducing mass…

>get a bunch of hyper active child like coding entities with memory deficiencies to build stuff without going off the rail and introducing massive security problems or building something completely mismatched to the requirements Development is essentially becoming management.

I see this comparison a lot, but I’m not sure I agree. At least not semantically. The list of what an engineer using agents is responsible for, largely hasn’t changed. Engineering managers haven’t changed responsibilities either.

Even with wrangling agents, you’re really just making them right the “correct code”. Something EMs don’t do, or at least the good ones don’t do with their ICs.

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