Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 301 posts

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#171

Post by gruez »

jurgenburgen wrote: post #151
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in 50 years America won't be a world power any more. It'll be in a similar place to Canada at best. What's going to replace it? Rapidly aging China? https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=10...

You don’t need a numerical advantage to dominate if you have a technological / organizational advantage. The British empire was outnumbered 10 to 1 and still managed to control a large portion of the world for a while. US government is working overtime to make sure legacy technologies stay around while the rest of the world is investing into the future.

>US government is working overtime to make sure legacy technologies stay around while the rest of the world is investing into the future.

"Rest of the world"? Europe isn't even a player in the AI race. China might be better placed, but they also lag the US in terms of model development and capital deployed. They've been catching up, but that's not the same as "[American will] be in a similar place to Canada at best". That would require a lot of things to go right for China and/or a lot of things to go wrong for the US.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#172

Post by dathinab »

gruez wrote: post #113
inigyou wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah, it's basically locked in now that in 50 years America won't be a world power any more. It'll be in a similar place to Canada at best.

>in 50 years America won't be a world power any more. It'll be in a similar place to Canada at best. What's going to replace it? Rapidly aging China? https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=10...

> What's going to replace it?

I'm not sure if I'm mis-reading your comment, but:

The idea that you "need a single extremely powerful country to replace it or the US will stay in its position" just doesn't add up. I'm not fully sure if that is what you meant but I have seen that argument a few times.

_There doesn't need to be a replacement._

For most of the worlds history there wasn't a single leading world supper power, just regional super powers, or supper powers in specific sectors.

And if we speak about who could become a supper power _after the US stops being one and there isn't one for some decades_. Then there are a bunch of candidates.

E.g. China has a population collapse issues, but due to it's cut throat ruthless government and total population number and lead in factory automation might be from all countries with similar problems by margin the most likely to overcome it without power collapse.

E.g. the EU might have many issues (as it's members has many issues) but the general concept has proven hugely successful. And what people forget is EU is the cherry on top of a huge stack of treaties which can be extended to 3rd parties independent of full EU membership. Like e.g. Canada, which doesn't plan to become an EU member, but might join some of this treaties as result of the non stop hostility from the US. Same for military treaties between NATO members which are independent of NATO like e.g. JEF, which would likely be open for letting Canada join. Anyway way to many words. But the end result may be a world supper power which is not one entity but a complex lossy coupled network of countries.

Then there have been some other cross country unions and countries, which want to gain super power relevance but have so far been too irrelevant due to a combination of corruption, bad luck and sabotage by existing powers etc. But if we speak about going for a few decades without any leading super power and maybe prime canidates harming each other (e.g. a US Chineese war) then they do actually have a chance.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#173

Post by andsoitis »

latexr wrote: post #166
andsoitis wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to see how much worse it could get, short of outright invasion or allying with Russia. Why would the US ally with Russia, who is a Chinese and Iranian ally? That's just uncritical thinking. The United States is the single largest bilateral provider of direct military equipment, intelligence, and defense funding to Ukraine (a European country) against Russia.

> Why would the US ally with Russia, who is a Chinese and Iranian ally? I don’t think the comment above you is suggesting that is a possibility, but rather saying “things are so bad that the only imaginable way to get worse would be ”. In other words, it seems to be hyperbole.

Perhaps, though my reading between the lines is that they think trust is so low because the US won't help defend Europe and might invade Europe, even though, despite rhetoric, all actions point to the opposite happening.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#174

Post by latexr »

xyzelement wrote: post #112
amarcheschi wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel it is hard to grasp for an American how much perception of US shifted in eu. This is just anedoctal of course, but a famous Italian singer famous for having written a song about American and sexual liberation decades ago, wrote an updated version. The former is "America", the latter is "America INC." You can guess which one depicts America in a bad light. I wouldn't have expected a famous singer to make such a…

[flagged]

> Will my kids be an ethnic minority in their own country in the next generation - and if so, what's that going to be like for them?

It occurs to me that an effective solution to that problem might be to… Treat minorities well? You know, like people equal to you? Societies are made of the people in them; if minorities are treated positively, then you don’t have to fear being in one. Teach your kids to be nice.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#175

Post by ipaddr »

surgical_fire wrote: post #129
mschuster91 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will my kids be an ethnic minority in their own country in the next generation I didn’t expect having to read great replacement bullshit on Hacker News. JFC do some napkin math, it’s utter nonsense.

It's pervasive. Especially when it is people from the US commenting on the EU.

[flagged]

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#176

Post by bjelkeman-again »

andsoitis wrote: post #154
stevesimmons wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a European, current foreign policy is not "reducing trust in America as a reliable and stable partner". It has already reduced trust to rock bottom. It's hard to see how much worse it could get, short of outright invasion or allying with Russia. Just this week, amongst other news: * America's useless adventures in Iran have used up so many Patriot missiles there aren't any left to defend Kyiv against Russ…

> It's hard to see how much worse it could get, short of outright invasion or allying with Russia. Why would the US ally with Russia, who is a Chinese and Iranian ally? That's just uncritical thinking. The United States is the single largest bilateral provider of direct military equipment, intelligence, and defense funding to Ukraine (a European country) against Russia.

It is, as the USA has a large population. We can be more nuanced.

By absolute dollars, single country: US > EU institutions > Germany > UK

By absolute dollars, bloc vs. bloc: EU/Europe combined (~$237bn+) now exceeds the US (~$130bn), especially after 2025

By per-capita/GDP burden: tiny front-line states (Denmark, Estonia, Lithuania, Norway) far outstrip both the US and the larger Western European economies — the US actually ranks closer to the bottom of the pack on a relative-effort basis, behind Germany, the UK, and virtually all Nordic/Baltic states

Between February 2022 and January 2025, average expenditure per European resident stood at $394; by April 2026 that figure had risen to $618, driven by the total spending by European NATO countries on Ukraine exceeding $237 billion, including $96 billion contributed just since January 2025.

Average European (across NATO's European members) $618 per person (2022-2026)

United States (my estimate: ~$130bn total ÷ ~340m population)≈ $384 per person

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#177

Post by rjrjrjrj »

inigyou wrote: post #64
llm_nerd wrote: post #30

A lot of new data centres have been announced in Alberta, Canada. Which is a weird location given that Alberta has a derelict power grid that can barely serve the current load, and runs almost entirely on fossil fuels. Meta, for instance, plans a $13B data centre in Sturgeon County. https://www.vozpopuli.com/indux/en/alberta-approved-a-932-me... They all plan on powering them by building massive natural gas generatin…

Oh, Alberta. That makes sense. Land of pissed off coal miners, isn't it?

Much more the land of oil and gas. Alberta no longer burns coal for electricity.

The dominant political party frames natural gas as "clean", because it isn't a dirty as coal; and Alberta natural gas in particular as "ethical", because not Russia or Saudi.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#178

Post by stockresearcher »

quentindemetz wrote: post #139
quickthrowman wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a comparison, one acre of alfalfa growing year round in California uses about 5*325000=1,625,000 gallons of water a year for four harvests, 4400 gallons of water per day per acre. There’s around a million acres of alfalfa grown in California for a total water usage of 1,625,000*1,000,000=1.625×10¹² gallons (or 5 million acre-feet) per year. 365 million gallons of water per year for one data center is 1000 acre fee…

That the only nation which sent man on the moon uses acre-feet as a unit of volume blows my mind

Oh sure, I can help.

1000 acre feet is approximately 40 hectare meters. Or, you know, about 1.2 billion liters.

Over on this side of the ocean, we’ve got freshwater lakes larger than entire European countries. There’s a lake over here, it has an island on it. That island has a lake, which has an island in it. And there’s a lake on that island.

We need units of measurement that represent large things. If you don’t, that’s ok.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#179

Post by gruez »

daishi55 wrote: post #126
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in 50 years America won't be a world power any more. It'll be in a similar place to Canada at best. What's going to replace it? Rapidly aging China? https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=10...

lol… you don’t know anything about the Chinese government if you think they aren’t already preparing for this. And the difference between them and us is that when they prepare for something, they actually prepare for it with real state capacity and planning. You know they are building armies of industrial and humanoid robots for exactly this reason? Also, sorry but the economist hates China with a passion, you really…

>Also, sorry but the economist hates China with a passion, you really shouldn’t believe a thing they say on the topic.

Note I'm just linking charts and figures, not their editorials. It's ironic that you accuse "economist hates China with a passion", but the best refutation you can come up with is some handwaving about future robot armies. How do we know you're not just hating US (or loving China) with a passion?

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#180

Post by throwaway173738 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #138
parineum wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting the information that it's unauthorized (or needs to be authorized)?

> Where are you getting the information that it's unauthorized (or needs to be authorized)? https://www.selc.org/press-release/naacp-asks-court-for-emer... and the previous link I referenced. One would think if there is even a suspicion (even if it hasn't been ruled in court yet) about large-scale harmful toxic emissions, the police and relevant authorities would at least quickly do some samples or what not, to figur…

Do you know the difference between civil law and criminal law? The police don’t care if they’re not violating a criminal statute. If you want to test how it works, build a brand new house in a city without pulling any permits.
Post reply on HN