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New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

nytimes.com

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Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#141

Post by _DeadFred_ »

quickthrowman wrote: post #118
cogman10 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the cooling system, but around 1 to 9L per kwh. [1] A lot, but not all, of these datacenters are using evaporative cooling, which is what kicks their water usage so high. So a 40MW datacenter will consume around 4 million liters of water per day if it is evaporatively cooled. [1] https://www.fwpcoa.org/content.aspx?page_id=5&club_id=859275...

As a comparison, one acre of alfalfa growing year round in California uses about 5*325000=1,625,000 gallons of water a year for four harvests, 4400 gallons of water per day per acre. There’s around a million acres of alfalfa grown in California for a total water usage of 1,625,000*1,000,000=1.625×10¹² gallons (or 5 million acre-feet) per year. 365 million gallons of water per year for one data center is 1000 acre fee…

Do Alfalfa growers traditionally use limited (and funded at large expense by the local community) municipal water hookups to grow their crops? Are alfalfa growers asking for new water hookup permits to access these resources?

Because DCs are, and that is the concern local communities have. Not random comparative statistics whose purpose seems to be to take valid local community concerns and pretend they're just a joke. How much do alfa growers in California add to my water bill? How much will new municipal water hookups by new data centers impact my water bill? One is a valid concern. One is just a BS attempt to discredit the valid concern. Because that is how this shady industry operates. On BS. On manipulation. And they wonder why they are more and more disliked.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#142

Post by cosmic_cheese »

vineyardmike wrote: post #9

Those in power seem to think that a compute advantage is necessary to maintain economic advantage. Despite this, the voters universally hate data centers, so much so that both NY and TX have data center construction moratoriums. Despite this, those in power refuse any environmentally aware energy policy nor water policy. Despite this, companies have been trying to be environmentally aware for either moral or marketin…

The sense of urgency is strange and feels extremely forced. There’s no way this is all so important that all other concerns automatically go out the window so projects can complete construction yesterday.

It really wouldn’t hurt if the developers involved tried even a little bit to be good neighbors and to select sites where they’re not going to be a nuisance and net negative to adjacent communities at minimum.

The blatantly extractive, externalizing mindset of this all reminds me of the attitude that mining companies have taken towards Appalachian states for over a century at this point.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#143

Post by DennisP »

xnx wrote: post #87

Aren't coal power plants waaaay more polluting than natural gas? Not just in terms of C02, but also really nasty stuff like particulates, sulphur, and metals? It's very trendy right now to get mad at datacenters, but I'd much rather energy come from natural gas than from an existing coal power plant. (Obviously, renewables would be better than either.)

The nasty stuff, yes. Regarding greenhouse gases, natural gas has turned out to be about as bad as coal once you account for methane leaks, and the industry has strenuously resisted any decent mitigation for that.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#144

Post by techdmn »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #128
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an indisputably rough list, and I'm sorry that's your conclusion. It's tough being here and feeling powerless to stop it. Beyond voting, campaign donations, judicious choice of employment, etc. Anyhow, you're welcome back should you change your mind. In my book, anyway.

> feeling powerless to stop it You guys are the meekest sheep to ever been led astray by a howling, undisguised wolf. What more does this regime have to do to warrant massive, historic, disruptive, non-peaceful protests in the USA? Have you seen protests in France? Bringing the country to a halt is the least you have to do in order for us to ever have faith in the USA again. Until then, nothing any US citizen can say…

I admit I haven't followed the French protests as closely as I should have. Do they shoot protestors in the face with teargas canisters there too? Maybe they do. Do those protestors face the real possibility of medical bankruptcy if they need extensive care? Does France enforce laws that protect striking workers?

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#145

Post by andsoitis »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #121
xyzelement wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Will my kids be an ethnic minority in their own country in the next generation - and if so, what's that going to be like for them? What about this is an essential concern for you? Like, what are the potential harms?

> > Will my kids be an ethnic minority in their own country in the next generation - and if so, what's that going to be like for them?

> What about this is an essential concern for you? Like, what are the potential harms?

European countries take great care in maintaining and strengthening their traditions and cultural heritage. That would be at risk. Now, whether or not that actually matters or not is debatable, but Europeans DO seem to care to keep their cultures and traditions alive.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#146

Post by preg_match »

mschuster91 wrote: post #117
xyzelement wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Will my kids be an ethnic minority in their own country in the next generation I didn’t expect having to read great replacement bullshit on Hacker News. JFC do some napkin math, it’s utter nonsense.

These people never say "great replacement theory", because they know if they do then that firmly puts them in the "flat earther" aisle. So, we need to call it out when we see it. This is just not legitimate ideology, it's a form of white supremacy.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#147

Post by andsoitis »

fabioborellini wrote: post #132
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will my kids be an ethnic minority in their own country in the next generation - and if so, what's that going to be like for them? What about this is an essential concern for you? Like, what are the potential harms?

He knows how white Americans treat minorities

[flagged]

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#148

Post by gruez »

fn-mote wrote: post #124
gruez wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in 50 years America won't be a world power any more. It'll be in a similar place to Canada at best. What's going to replace it? Rapidly aging China? https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=80... https://www.economist.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=600,quality=10...

> What's going to replace it? Rapidly aging China? Using the age profile of a country with over a billion people to dismiss its geopolitical power has no credibility. More appropriate to point out their (our) lack of domestic chip production and outsourcing of critical technologies.

>Using the age profile of a country with over a billion people to dismiss its geopolitical power has no credibility.

The first two charts are for GDP, which correlates pretty well with geopolitical power. Moreover if we're going by population, wouldn't that imply India, and then later Africa are going to be superpowers?

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#149

Post by preg_match »

lee_ars wrote: post #27
mocana wrote: post #11

Ok. A serious question. I frequently hear that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of electricity. Then why are they using gas turbines? Is it because they can generate more power with a smaller real estate footprint?

Texas specifically has heavily politicized and demonized wind power, in spite of having massive successes with it prior to 2016 and being a leading producer of it. Solar isn't as bad, but is still seen as "leftist." The political landscape in TX is vastly more friendly to natural gas. In other words, they are using gas turbines because the politicians are stupid.

Gas is also incredibly cheap in Texas. Way, way cheaper than you would think. In some parts, it's negative price - you will be paid to use it. We have entirely too much gas, which is actually a problem because ideally we want to discourage its use.

So yes, wind and solar are cheap. Depending on where in Texas you are, gas is cheaper.

Re: New Amazon Data Center Is Set to Have the Most Polluting Power Plant in the U.S.

#150

Post by margalabargala »

firesteelrain wrote: post #86
inigyou wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It banned all foreign made solar inverters i.e. all solar inverters.

That’s true. China dominates globally but I found that the US installed European and Japanese models. There is a big supply chain concern and set of reviews happening all across the entire government sector. Energy is a national security concern. [1] 1. https://www.energy.gov/cmei/systems/solar-photovoltaics-supp...

It's bad policy.

If one is trying to attack the threat you claim, one might ban all internet capable inverters.

To ban all, even fully offline ones, means the threat you describe is an excuse.

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