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What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

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Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#641

Post by mac-mc »

lelanthran wrote: post #614
pj_mukh wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also the headline is about tech workers but the article is about Knowledge workers. I know a class of tech workers absolutely fired up about the new Industrial Revolution, they're just not on this forum or featured in lengthy navel-gazing articles like this one.

> I know a class of tech workers absolutely fired up about the new Industrial Revolution, That's because they're thinking that they're still going to get paid $200k/y for typing in "Duh, Claude, make me an app, here the specs from the client, doh!" They aren't seeing that there is very little value to add when all they are, is an interface to a magic software-making machine.

It's very similar to being an EM, and if you think EMs are useless, the vast majority EMs have decided it's not worth their time to educate you, and the few who have tried to gently probably went over your head.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#642

Post by tossandthrow »

bjt12345 wrote: post #260
RobinL wrote: post #248

I've often felt my job as a programmer has often been to automate myself (and others) out of my job. But I've always felt in control of that. I suppose there's some cosmic justice to the fact that it's now being done to me.

Serious question though - how are they going with that? In reality, I see a lot of the current unhappiness in the Tech industry is being triggered by their pointy haired bosses wasting millions on their failed AI strategies only to embark on more failing AI strategies.

We are too early to deem it failed ai strategies.

I am advising small startups. One of them went entirely to agentic developed software by a team of non technical founders.

They had their sec audit done with considerably fewer errors than had a software developer build the same (which would have taken upwards of 4 times as long).

I am sorry, the technical capabilities of the agentic systems for software development is already much further ahead than what people comprehend.

Severe disruption is imminent.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#643

Post by kaffekaka »

chii wrote: post #634
quijoteuniv wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it better to find out that a lot of corporate work may not have much intrinsic meaning now, rather than just before you die? At least then you get a chance to do something about it. It seems to me these changes are much more daunting if you live in a country where no job means no health insurance, and where the pay gap between skilled and unskilled work is huge. That makes an existential question about work int…

> much intrinsic meaning now work should not be considered to have to have intrinsic meaning for it to be worthwhile - you merely need to make sure your pay is worthwhile. Find intrinsic meaning outside of work. The best way, imho, is to find the highest paying job you can, work super hard and earn maximally, until you built up a nest egg from which you can draw a living off indefinitely. Then, use the remaining time…

So, the plan is to work super hard until you are ~40, only to die in a car accident at 35?

Don't plan to have fun later, because later may never come.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#644

Post by eru »

ben_w wrote: post #390
pj_mukh wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"optimistic and enthusiastic about the new messiah" I mean that's you agreeing with Elon Musk, I disagree, I think AI is just normal technology [1], there's a lot of us. Like tech revolutions before, it'll have huge effects on productivity alleviating major scarcities. That's boring to the algorithm, not enough conflict , but it's exciting to a lot of tech workers. No messiah's and no Jihads, just excited about goi…

"Normal tech" puts people out of careers every so often, and kinda randomly. Society has benefited as everyone who isn't put out of a job significantly outnumbers those who are. I was expecting AI to put me, a software developer, out of a job after everyone else , because I thought coders would be needed to write the AI for everyone else, one job task at a time. Right now, it's looking like LLMs can translate not onl…

> The economic impact if that actually ships without any caveats would also be huge (which is something I'd want people to keep in mind if they feel like responding with how good Tesla's current version is, I've heard that for the last three versions at least).

Yes, I'm still waiting for that. It's gonna lift productivity in what's a large sector in most economies. Of course, most companies will have to re-organise their processes to take full advantage, because eg truck drivers also perform all kinds of ad hoc labour around loading and unloading.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#645

Post by Earw0rm »

noduerme wrote: post #554
paulorlando wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you mentioned Etaoin Shrdlu and hot type / linotype... There are a lot of industries (at least historically) that have organized labor. In the UK, there was the “Wapping Dispute” in 1986 when computer technology enabled journalists to type in their copy directly, doing away with the need for workers to set type using linotype printing. Linotype was a big improvement on the older letter-by-letter typesetting and…

I live in Oregon. Up until last year , you weren't allowed to pump your own gas in most parts of the state. The law required gas station attendants to do it, as a scheme to keep them employed. The most annoying part of this wasn't the tiny marginal cost, but that it sometimes took forever to get your gas if the attendant was busy. You'd just sit there looking at the pump you weren't allowed to put your credit card in…

They're doing this in the UK right now with security for cultural events.

Since the Manchester Arena terror attack (awful, tragic, evil, and an isolated event), it has been mandatory for music and live theatre venues to have an absolute army of "security" staff checking people's bags.

A full 95 percent of whom would be entirely and totally useless in any actual emergency or danger situation.

It's one of the things contributing to the ever increasing price of show tickets, but basically it's a tax on people who can afford live shows to create jobs for an otherwise fairly unemployable sector of the population (young and not much education - way too little natural demand for that in central London to mop up all the supply).

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#646

Post by viccis »

J_Shelby_J wrote: post #639
lelanthran wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know a class of tech workers absolutely fired up about the new Industrial Revolution, That's because they're thinking that they're still going to get paid $200k/y for typing in "Duh, Claude, make me an app, here the specs from the client, doh!" They aren't seeing that there is very little value to add when all they are, is an interface to a magic software-making machine.

[flagged]

I've actually thought about creating (maybe ironically with AI) a browser extension that just filters every submission about or clearly created with AI out. I spend all day being asked to review AI PR slop by coworkers who I suspect to be working multiple jobs, "creating" PRs that they don't review. They have AI review my comments and Slack me follow up questions on them. It's a constant drain on my productivity, and that of my coworkers who use AI appropriately. So I just hate to log onto here, the place where I go to read people who know what they're talking about describe their pet (or prod) projects, and see it full of AI discussion like this or "Show HN" with something they didn't make.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#647

Post by Earw0rm »

mrguyorama wrote: post #347
chasd00 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i go back to what happened to Journalism when the Internet and especially "web2.0" took off. It was hard on the industry but I don't think we have lost generations of journalists. The software biz has always expected everyone else to adapt to technological shifts at a rapid pace. I'm a dev (more of a lead/mgr these days) so my neck is on the line too but even i have to chuckle at the irony.

>It was hard on the industry but I don't think we have lost generations of journalists. We literally did. There are dramatically fewer journalists now than just a few decades ago, and everyone is constantly complaining about how bad "journalism" is now. It was definitely bad a long time ago, in the era of yellow journalism, but now "Journalists" don't even ask basic questions, don't push back in interviews at all, do…

Yep. Most "journalism" now is opinion columns.

Local journalism is dead, with unfortunate consequences for local politics that bleeds into national and international stuff.

National investigative journalism is hanging by a thread, with a TON of stuff (mostly corruption of various kinds) going uninvestigated which should be. Some of the slack has been picked up by academics of one kind or another making their work more accessible, but now they're in the firing line too.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#648

Post by imtringued »

ben_w wrote: post #390
pj_mukh wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>"optimistic and enthusiastic about the new messiah" I mean that's you agreeing with Elon Musk, I disagree, I think AI is just normal technology [1], there's a lot of us. Like tech revolutions before, it'll have huge effects on productivity alleviating major scarcities. That's boring to the algorithm, not enough conflict , but it's exciting to a lot of tech workers. No messiah's and no Jihads, just excited about goi…

"Normal tech" puts people out of careers every so often, and kinda randomly. Society has benefited as everyone who isn't put out of a job significantly outnumbers those who are. I was expecting AI to put me, a software developer, out of a job after everyone else , because I thought coders would be needed to write the AI for everyone else, one job task at a time. Right now, it's looking like LLMs can translate not onl…

>I was expecting AI to put me, a software developer, out of a job after everyone else, because I thought coders would be needed to write the AI for everyone else, one job task at a time.

You don't seem to get it. If what you said is true then the only reason why your job is gone first is because software moves faster than hardware. The chain reaction to get rid of all jobs has started.

After all, you can now automate the development of physical hardware including robots and their control algorithms. Then all we need to do is give the AI a job shop and mechanical engineering is done next.

And so on. Until every single job is gone.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#649

Post by bloody_bocker »

analog31 wrote: post #506
bonoboTP wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do concerts. It's the old way. It's human and personal. It's effort though, not passive income like album sales used to be.

Indeed, all I do is live performance. Recording is too much work. ;-)

I also am recently coming to realization that live music is best experience, followed by recorded live music (plenty of sessions on YT that sound gorgeous and have better performances than 'normal' recordings do.

Re: What happens if an entire class of workers loses faith in their careers

#650

Post by testerius »

kaffekaka wrote: post #643
chii wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> much intrinsic meaning now work should not be considered to have to have intrinsic meaning for it to be worthwhile - you merely need to make sure your pay is worthwhile. Find intrinsic meaning outside of work. The best way, imho, is to find the highest paying job you can, work super hard and earn maximally, until you built up a nest egg from which you can draw a living off indefinitely. Then, use the remaining time…

So, the plan is to work super hard until you are ~40, only to die in a car accident at 35? Don't plan to have fun later, because later may never come.

I think it doesn't matter when you died.

You didn't exist before you were born, so you had no idea about anything.

You "die" when you go to sleep.

So we could say most of it doesn't matter - of course if there isn't anything after our living here.

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