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Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#181
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should include other countries for reference. The US has approximately 390x that amount of debt (only 5 times the population) and the average person is economically much worse off than all the European countries you just mentioned. We literally spend more government money per person on healthcare than France does while having less public healthcare, precisely because of the "help the rich" policies causing most o…

7x not 390x

The US public debt is $39 trillion. The figure quoted by the parent comment is $100 billion

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#182
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are basically saying you can tell us, but you won't. If you are not going to tell us anything, why are you teasing us as if you will? Holding back discussion points is not a way to advance a discussion

You are right. I should be more forthright; I was answering elsewhere. Here's another comment I made that's relevant. """ I think supply-side economics deserves more nuance than simply thinking we need to make the tax rate arbitrarily low. The Laffer curve isn't the only thing you should look at, since where you tax can be just as important as how much you tax. Take corporate taxes for example. If one were to advocat…

I see, interesting.

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always like to approach this conversation with a question: Should business that actually do create jobs in practice get bigger tax breaks? For example, if I by some miracle create a 1 man company that makes $100 million / year profit and somebody else creates a company that makes $100 million / year profit but has 2,000 employees...should the two companies be taxed differently? Walmart employees 1.6 million people…

It would incentivize the wrong things: All else being equal, you want to produce more with less labor and other inputs. It’s a good thing farming needs an order of magnitude fewer farmers than a century ago.

> All else being equal, you want to produce more with less labor and other inputs.

I'm not sure how to work with the "all else being equal" part. I suspect it's a way to get out of dealing with the truth of the situation, but feel free to expand on it.

But.. to the main point: "you want to produce more with less labor and other inputs" Let's take this to an extreme. Take all the business owners in the land and make them so efficient they only need employ themselves. "Productivity" remains the same, but now the bulk of the inhabitants of the land are unemployed, and can't buy the "products". So now the owners make no money and go bankrupt. And no-one has work. And there's no productivity.

I think what "you" really want (and by "you" I mean "we") is for business owners to make only the slightest margin of profit possible (after paying themselves) to keep their businesses running and to employ as many people as possible, who all get paid as close as possible to the owner; and for any left-over to be reinvested in new businesses with the same approach to paying staff. That way more people have a job, more people are "productive" and more people can buy the stuff made by the companies.

Sure, this is a ridiculous extreme, but it makes more sense to me than "you want to produce more with less labor and other inputs". I am curious though: is there an equally impractical and extreme story that works to bolster your argument, to help me see the pattern more clearly?

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#184
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, when I googled supply-side economics it said it was another name for trickle-down economics. I'm interested in how you'd say they differ, honestly, not trying to be argumentative. I found at least found one analysis (by a left leaning think tank, so take it for what you will) https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-failure-of-supp... that seems to show that supply-side economics hasn't panned out. It see…

I don't know where you're looking, but if you go to the first result for trick-down economics, the Wikipedia page, within the first few lines it mentions how the term is used, and how it was created by detractors of supply-side economics. It's never been a real policy. "the term 'trickle-down economics' was popularized by Democrats in the US to derogate Reaganomics" If you similarly look up supply-side economics, at…

I mean that's definitely cherry picking portions of the wiki. Both of the articles refer to each other much more than those examples, not that that really matters.

Plus the Supply Side Economics wiki article, right below the "Not to be confused with trickle-down economics", contains a huge box pointing out the many issues with the article, including but not limited to "Needs more academic or scholarly research, rather than newspaper articles." and "contains weasel words: vague phrasing that often accompanies biased or unverifiable information."

I also was trying to google it and saw what the other commenter saw btw. The AI overview on Google says "Yes, they refer to the same core economic concept, but supply-side economics is the formal, academic term, while trickle-down economics is a popular and critical label for it. Both argue that cutting taxes and reducing rules for businesses and rich people will help the whole economy". And it references: https://mattbruenig.com/2013/01/07/on-trickle-down-economics... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics https://study.com/learn/lesson/video/demand-side-vs-supply-s... https://www.annenbergclassroom.org/glossary_term/supply-side...

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll pick up the conversation if GP won't (GP = grand parent, your post is the parent of mine and the post above is the grandparent of mine). You're missing the forest for the trees. I argue that the forest is a high level strategy that has been playing out for approaching 50 years: 1. Push money into the capital economy and cut taxes. If anyone complains, cite growth. 2. Push taxes into the labor economy and cut ben…

From what I'm hearing, the argument you're making is that regardless of explicit policy goals, (1) and (2) implicitly further an agenda which has a similar end result to trickle-down economics, that being the "predictably and observably upwards re-distributive." Now (1) and (2) as you mentioned, are broadly associated with the economic right in America. The usual narrative is that Republicans want to do (1) and (2) t…

Thanks for replying in good faith, that's not usual in this day and age.

In the US, the economic left is a minority wing of the Democratic party. Neoliberals are the majority and have been for the entire Sixth Party System. The "New Democrats" of Bill Clinton -- 30% tax hike on top workers, 30% cut on capital gains tax, gutting of social programs that makes DOGE look like a dog toy, NAFTA, and hey, Epstein connection -- tend to vote with us more often than neoconservatives so we caucus with them but to our eyes they have more in common with Republican neocons than they do with the New Deal Democrats of the Fifth Party System, the FDR democrats who ended the Great Depression, ended elder poverty, electrified rural America, regulated the banks, taxed the rich, and won World War II.

I'm editorializing, of course, but don't come at us with "modern Democrats do a lot of things that look upward-redistributive." We know. They know too, that's why they called themselves "New" Democrats, they were explicitly sidelining the economic left. Obama was a little better, he even did a teeny tiny tax-the-rich with NIIT, but he didn't land the public-option, he didn't end Bush's wars, and he bailed out the banks. When Biden went in front of congress and proposed to tax capital gains like ordinary income, like the states do, it wasn't just Republicans laughing at him it was most Democrats (he probably promised Bernie to float the idea in exchange for support, and Bernie wanted those laughs on the record). The Democrats are a liberal party, not a lib-left or left party, and that penduluum is only beginning to slowly start its swing back. Which isn't to say that leftists are perfect (lord almighty we've got problems), but we've got substantially more focus on "the only war is the class war." Agree or disagree, that's what defines "left," and in the present day most Democrats aren't.

As for policy intent, I started where you are and after reading about the Roosevelts and Reagans of the world came fully around to the FDR perspective: if a policy predictably transfers enormous sums of money, don't accept incompetence as the explanation. But this is an adverse inference and needs examples, so let's list some.

Example 1: IP law. As a science-minded programmer I naturally have opinions on the problems of present day IP law, how the self-funding aspect of the USPTO gives them incentive to over-grant patents, that the bar for challenging trivial patents is too high so the optimal strategy is "lay minefields" not "do research," that bundling favors companies with strategic portfolios and lawyers on payroll, that all these little things add up to a system that helps the big guy at the expense of the little guy. I thought it was idiosyncratic, that the system just sort of evolved that way and a bunch of neutral-intent details turned out to have positive returns-to-capital. Nope. Ronald Reagan. The Reagan-Era IP law "reforms" were effectively identical to my check-list of everything wrong with the patent system. It turns out that every complaint of mine was well known last century and litigated last century -- the "Nine No-Nos" made me literally laugh out loud -- and the fact that Reagan's "reforms" all came in a single package and undid exactly that progress made it pretty clear to me that the crew which did this knew exactly what they were doing. Their checklist was as precise as mine, they were just punching in the opposite direction.

It's even more stark with anti-trust, I don't need to say "they" I can say "Robert Bork." Reagan and Bork brought back the Consumer Welfare standard, where mergers are allowed if a company can scribble a plan with crayons on butcher paper for how their monopoly will actually reduce prices, honest (crossed fingers behind back)! I saw many school acquaintances make many such scribbles and create lots of shareholder value at the expense of consumers. They absolutely knew what they were doing and joked about it in private. The idea that markets don't need competition because (incorrect claim about Standard Oil monopoly reducing prices by 70%) dates back to the Robber Baron era, it was litigated and defeated by Louis Brandeis in the Progressive era, and Reagan and Bork absolutely 100% understood what they were doing bringing it back. The wave of corporate consolidation it ushered in over the last 40 years was the entire point.

There are more examples. The ACA (Obamacare) is the one that bumped me out of the Republican party by convincing me that Republicans weren't legislating in good faith, back in the day. It's even more complicated than the above, though, and that's the problem: politics is adversarial, you must account for the possibility that a scoundrel is trying to force the draw, and it's soooo easy to force the draw by drowning with details. If someone takes 1000 steps to the right and 3 to the left, they can still give you 3 bullet points about how they're totally a leftist. The only defense is perspective.

That's hard to acquire because in general you need to know not just which levers were pulled but how much they mattered, what were the possible motives, what did people know, and which levers could have been pulled. Sometimes it's easy though. When we let Trump print $4T in an election year and he decides to spend $2T inflating the housing market, $1T inflating Wall St, $400B on checks (a 10-for-me-1-for-you ratio) and then, after much begging, graciously concedes to another $400B for a 5-for-me-1-for-you ratio, that breakdown tells you something. When the media spends 100% of its time talking about the 10%/20% that was actually checks, that tells you something. When Elon Musk whines about paying $500M/yr taxes while stacking $200B in wealth for a tax rate of 0.25%, that tells you something. When congress laughs at the idea of taxing capital gains like ordinary income (even Robber Baron lawyers weren't that "extreme"), that tells you something. On occasion, the priorities are laid very bare, and it is important to pay attention on those occasions.

One last thing: the Double Insulation incentives (private funding of campaigns, private ownership of media, rich people systematically in charge of both) exist and are strong. The idea that policy only coincidentally produces outcomes consistent with these incentives beggars belief, first on account of the failure of those incentives to consistently affect the politicians, and subsequently on account of those politicians to consistently fumble legislative intent in the same direction. You need enormous and ongoing feats of mental gymnastics to sustain these explanations, whereas I just need to say "they went where the money was." Because of course they did. Why would they do anything else when they have an infinite supply of counterparty credulity to work with?

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of a government is not to raise the most tax money possible.

No, it's to care for its people . And in order to do that, it needs money. Money it raises by taxation.

The purpose is not to care for its people either. It's purpose is to govern.

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would incentivize the wrong things: All else being equal, you want to produce more with less labor and other inputs. It’s a good thing farming needs an order of magnitude fewer farmers than a century ago.

> All else being equal, you want to produce more with less labor and other inputs. So what incentive structure would you suggest? How do you prevent the concentration of wealth that results from a business raking in millions of dollars per employee?

In what sense is there a “concentration of wealth”? Look at any large, highly profitable public company and the #1 owner is probably Vanguard funds.

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you describe the defensible policies of supply-side economics? That's as vague a term as trickle-down economics to me. Supply-side economics is based on a flawed premise of looking at only the Laffer curve and saying if taxes are too high the economy suffers, therefore we must make the tax rate arbitrarily low. In reality though there are more nuances to making the tax rate arbitrarily low (e.g. high inflation an…

Sure. I think supply-side economics deserves more nuance than simply thinking we need to make the tax rate arbitrarily low. The Laffer curve isn't the only thing you should look at, since where you tax can be just as important as how much you tax. Take corporate taxes for example. If one were to advocate to get rid of corporate taxes, you might think that person unabashedly biased. What kind of person would want to g…

> Tax the Walton family, or the highest earning employees directly, and you get to have your cake and it too since you get similar amounts of tax revenue without damaging the economy nearly as much

They do get taxed same as everyone else, more even. What’s not taxed though is the stocks which never get materialized into cash and grow in value because of the low corporate tax rate that makes them more profitable.

> But the reality is that when you tax corporations, that is one of the most economically damaging taxes you can do

That’s a rhetorical jump you made. Corporations benefit from the government creating order and structure just like everyone else. They have a legal system they can use to settle disputes and protect themselves. They have solid roadway networks that help their employees get to work and to transport their goods. They get a military that protects their goods in transit to/from foreign lands. They get a police force that ensures that people don’t destroy their property. It’s only damaging if the value provided to all corporations is less than the tax rate is, but claiming any tax is damaging is laughable on its face. And that’s ignoring all the other kinds of non-monetary value the government grants corporations (eminent domain, water rights, suppression of various regulations, etc)

Re: Tax cuts for the wealthy only benefit the rich (2023)

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's to care for its people . And in order to do that, it needs money. Money it raises by taxation.

The purpose is not to care for its people either. It's purpose is to govern.

No, that entirely depends on if you subscribe to the Hobbesian outlook that argues the natural state of the world is one of war and brutality. The James Locke school argues that nature isn’t constantly at war, but it does lack a neutral arbiter which is the role of government and the social contract: people get better protection for life, liberty, and property in exchange for giving some of their freedom to obeying the government. Aristotle argued the state exists to enable the good life. Its role is to cultivate virtue, shape character, and ensure that citizens live well and morally. Jean-Jacques Rousseau agreed on the social contract but argued that the community has a collective responsibility to look after the well-being and moral equality of members. In the 19th and 20th centuries, thinkers like T.H. Green expanded this to argue that a just society cannot use the veil of ignorance and must actively improve the lives of the least fortunate. This is where public education and social safety nets come from.

So it looks like this: Ancient Greece: state has to care for people English Enlightenment: govern French enlightenment: govern but you need to care for your people German enlightenment: govern based on ideas

Given the Americans rebelled against the English and aligned with the French, it’s a wonder modern Americans have adopted this brutalistic attitude. Btw the French Enlightenment is what led to the Romantic period.

TLDR: role of government depends on whose philosophy you adopt. But in terms of the greatest figures and looking at the healthiest countries, I’d say it is to look after its people.

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