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A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

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Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#271
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to read the information on the internet today is via a LLM. Just like you don't process raw data in a data warehouse or datalake by looking at tables, you use a SQL or BI tool, to process all the information on the internet you need to tool to digest it for you. For many, today that tool is a LLM chat interface or agent.

This is such a grim thing to read.

Maybe, but it's reality. Not too long ago the rule would be "if it doesn't show up in google, it doesn't exist". Today agents+LLMs are better browsers than Chrome/Safari/Firefox/... If a webpage does not show up in an LLM it may as well not exist.

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You take your site off the public internet and paywall it off. Websites on the open internet should be accessible and ideally the goal should be to share something cool with the world, not just to make yourself rich.

> You take your site off the public internet and paywall it off I did that. I even printed and bound it in a bunch of dead trees and put it up for sale. The LLMs still stole it.

Paywalling off the site solves the problem of monetizing bot traffic, any bot crawling your pages paid you to be there, but it can't fix the plagiarism/copyright infringement problem

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#273

Something suspiciously absent from this article is addressing whether some of these are in fact human visitors, but humans issuing chatgpt or similar queries instead of going directly. Is it really a bot if it's in response to a human asking for some aggregate information about charities, triggering a web search and then following the result links to get details for the human? Well, clearly yes it is, but it's a very…

> Something suspiciously absent from this article is addressing whether some of these are in fact human visitors, but humans issuing chatgpt or similar queries instead of going directly.

That's not absent from the article, it's right there in the section titled "The Claude ratio". ChatGPT, Claude, etc. use different user-agents for scraping vs user-initiated requests, and the author notes that user-initiated requests were an absolutely miniscule fraction of the total traffic.

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#274
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you know what a browser is called by the web site? check the header that tells the version. USER AGENT not user, an agent on behalf of the user. the web was intended to be usable by agents belonging to users. in our path of the multiverse, the main agent we think of happens to be live interactive browser. but that need not have been, nor will it be in the future, the dominant USER AGENT. for a glimpse at one possible…

Yeah it's sort of weird that people are so used to using their computer to interact with other computers across the internet that the whole thing has become invisible to them: They completely forget that they're using a computer at all. Along come "bots" and suddenly everyone remembers that the whole thing involves computers. Driving the computer by hand for hours was never efficient, but is marginally entertaining I…

This reminds me of all the confused comments that pop up whenever someone calls plain HTML with forms and links a "REST API." "But APIs are for programs! People visiting websites aren't programs."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32141027

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#275

Anubis[1] is a superb fix for sites not behind Cloudflare/Fastly/Bunny etc. We had millions of bot requests, on a site serving all countries so we couldn't block by country, with fake user-agents so we couldn't block using that. It uses 'proof of work' to detect real browser software. [1] https://anubis.techaro.lol/

It doesn't detect "real browsers". It simply adds some friction and is niche enough that AI scrapers have not bothered to bypass it yet.

There is enough visceral hatred for the Anubis branding, I am surprised an AI skill for bypassing it hasn't been broadcast yet.

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#276
post #122

Anubis[1] is a superb fix for sites not behind Cloudflare/Fastly/Bunny etc. We had millions of bot requests, on a site serving all countries so we couldn't block by country, with fake user-agents so we couldn't block using that. It uses 'proof of work' to detect real browser software. [1] https://anubis.techaro.lol/

Anubis sucks because CPU is cheap for scrapers and hard for humans.

How is it hard for humans?

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#277
post #138
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I run a local script or an LLM that needs to fetch a web page from your site and you block that script or LLM as being a bot, you hurt me, the user. No; in this case you are not a user, you are a bot user.

The best way to read the information on the internet today is via a LLM. Just like you don't process raw data in a data warehouse or datalake by looking at tables, you use a SQL or BI tool, to process all the information on the internet you need to tool to digest it for you. For many, today that tool is a LLM chat interface or agent.

The worst way to read the information on the internet today is via a LLM.

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#278
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The social contract for putting a website on the public internet involves following standards and making your website accessible. You SHOULD make sure that your website is readable to people no matter what user agent they are using as long as it's standards compliant. For example, making a website that only works in Edge and refuses to load for anything else would be a shitty practice. You are free to do it. There's…

The social contract for putting a website on the public internet was built on the assumption that browsers would be used to access those websites, and that most browsers would generally behave in a similar way (click on page, display page, pretty simple). LLMs are not browsers, nor are they people, so I don't see why they should be part of this equation at all. They do not display the page for a real person to read,…

> The social contract for putting a website on the public internet was built on the assumption that browsers would be used to access those websites, and that most browsers would generally behave in a similar way (click on page, display page, pretty simple).

No, not browsers, user agents (some of which would be browsers) and there was never an assumption of how a website would behave on the user's end, that's the job the user agent. All that HTML and CSS are only suggestions, but the power was always intended to be left to the user to decide if/how they wanted that data presented to them and it was always intended that the user be able to choose whatever tools they wanted to collect, process, and display content pulled down from the internet. That same principle is how we have ad-blockers. You are free to infest your website with ads, but as the person requesting the website I'm under zero obligation to display any part of that site I don't want.

> LLMs are not browsers, nor are they people, so I don't see why they should be part of this equation at all.

LLMs are just another tool used by people to collect and process the information available on websites. Maybe there is a distinction to be made between people using LLMs to get web content and corporations scraping websites to take training data, but even scraping has always been a common and expected practice. It's the current scale that is making things different.

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#279

Something suspiciously absent from this article is addressing whether some of these are in fact human visitors, but humans issuing chatgpt or similar queries instead of going directly. Is it really a bot if it's in response to a human asking for some aggregate information about charities, triggering a web search and then following the result links to get details for the human? Well, clearly yes it is, but it's a very…

> Running a site this way

What do you mean "this way". What other way is there to run the site?

Re: A year of fighting scrapers on my 1.5 million-page website

#280
post #273

Something suspiciously absent from this article is addressing whether some of these are in fact human visitors, but humans issuing chatgpt or similar queries instead of going directly. Is it really a bot if it's in response to a human asking for some aggregate information about charities, triggering a web search and then following the result links to get details for the human? Well, clearly yes it is, but it's a very…

> Something suspiciously absent from this article is addressing whether some of these are in fact human visitors, but humans issuing chatgpt or similar queries instead of going directly. That's not absent from the article, it's right there in the section titled "The Claude ratio". ChatGPT, Claude, etc. use different user-agents for scraping vs user-initiated requests, and the author notes that user-initiated requests…

Oh, that's what "Anthropic's search crawler, had requested 420,680 pages in one week. That same week, Claude sent me 12 human visitors" meant?

Yeah, googling it does seem like "Claude-User" is for user-initiated requests.

By "Claude sent me" I thought the author meant referer header in real browser requests showed that they came from.

I mean, that's what the section "Pages crawled per visitor referred" refers to, right?

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