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Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

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Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#401

Post by oblio »

sourcecodeplz wrote: post #324
MostlyStable wrote: post #30

I take the point, but I think the author picked a poor analogy. Cooking even an excellent steak is actually not that hard. In fact, I'd argue that it's among the easiest things to master/make at a top level quality at home. Does it require some modicum of attention and understanding? Sure. But starting with a high quality cut, owning a meat-thermometer, and knowing about reverse searing is about all it takes to relia…

what even is a perfect stake? is it rare, medium-rare, medium, well-done? i think it is subjective.

For me it's well done but 90% of meat puritans will skewer me for that. Even after explaining my reasoning. They'll say either rare or at most medium-rare.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#402

Post by oblio »

z3t4 wrote: post #58

Using Claude Code is like asking questions in online forums, if anyone remember that, we still have sites like Stack overflow. The difference now is that those asking the questions are actually paying for the answers.

And the "person" answering:

1. Will always answer (even if sometimes wrong)

2. In a reasonable time frame

3. Can be asked in almost any language and answers in the same language

4. Is always polite

Most people were never willing to ask on StackOverlow.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#403

Post by somenameforme »

WA wrote: post #376
somenameforme wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bring the cheapo French press kit it into the A- domain once you appreciate the number one trick to making good coffee: DON'T BOIL THE WATER. Water that is hot, but well below boiling brings out the flavor of the beans a million times more than boiling water. Get a glass kettle, and turn it off when you start to get some decent bubble action on the bottom. Once you get that down, zomg - a French press with even t…

Starbucks uses espresso machines that cost 4-5 figures. They have automatic thermal control. They never boil the water. While I agree with your overall sentiment, claiming that Starbucks makes coffee too hot and thus tastes bad is nonsense.

I'm not speculating why Starbucks coffee tastes how it does, I have no idea there. It's just a handy medium for comparison because a cup in Laos is going to taste the same as a cup in NYC. And while they don't make great coffee, they also don't make horrible coffee - and so I think beating Starbucks is a pretty good and understandable baseline to aim for.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#404

Post by Timwi »

asdfman123 wrote: post #137
xtajv wrote: post #12

I do not appreciate when authors use the royal "we" to speak for all software engineers when admitting to low quality-control standards. I suspect that it is an attempt to broach an uncomfortable topic through vulnerable self-disclosure, but we need to be serious about admitting when there is a problem somewhere. "Bugs" are not any more cute or fuzzy or entertaining or harmless than the engine "gremlins" that haunted…

> To build good software with AI, you still have to understand software. > You need to know what you’re actually asking for, how to judge what comes back, and when the machine is just confidently serving you charcoal. It's surprising to me this even needs to be written down. Like, obviously still use your brain and think about what the computer is doing. Did you guys think that LLMs were magic?

I mean you're not wrong, but consider that a lot of high-level developers treat low-level details such as CPU architecture, memory virtualization, and even garbage collection as essentially magic. That's not the same thing as LLMs because those things I listed are carefully crafted to be reliable abstractions, but I can understand the impetus to want to think of LLMs in a similar way.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#405

Post by brailsafe »

Iolaum wrote: post #394
lelanthran wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DON'T BOIL THE WATER. Water that is hot, but well below boiling "Boiling" differs in temperature from place to place. Mineral content of water, altitude makes a large difference.

Not sure this is a meaningful factor for normal circumstances (for example below 1km altitude and for water that's safe to drink). According to CGPT at 1km altitude the boiling temperature of water is 96.7 C.

> Not sure this is a meaningful factor for normal circumstances (for example below 1km altitude and for water that's safe to drink).

Some very populated cities are above 2km, many are above 1km, and most great coffee is grown ~>=2km. Water hardness and flavour is a big deal as well.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#406

Post by 1659447091 »

gamblor956 wrote: post #339
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many do. They don't start when you order....

Yes I'm aware that Outback and Chilis use sous vide. I mean a real steakhouse, not a family restaurant masquerading as a steakhouse.

> I mean a real steakhouse, not a family restaurant masquerading as a steakhouse

Exactly. Outback and Chilis has awful steak, but that explains the steak cooking advice here. Mortons is probably the best chain restaurant steak in the US. Texas Roadhouse for a cheaper almost-as-good version, but still far and away better than Outback

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#407

Post by pjc50 »

Havoc wrote: post #180

>And what do we want? >We want the perfect steak. This premise seems incorrect. SWEs may aspire to produce perfect steaks as a matter of pride, but demand asks for mass produced steaks that trade off against other factor like time and cost. There is a reason github isn't full of nasa lunar lander quality this can't crash code...

Indeed. The global chain is McDonalds, which is of extremely average beef sold as hamburger rather than steak, but at vast quantities and predictable quality and low price. LLMs are going to be the McDonalds of code: "everyone knows" it's bad for you and the environment, they have a huge number of customers anyway.

(Meanwhile my main takeaway from this is that, like AI, people really like talking about making steak and make it their whole personality)

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#408

Post by pnt12 »

WA wrote: post #376
somenameforme wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd bring the cheapo French press kit it into the A- domain once you appreciate the number one trick to making good coffee: DON'T BOIL THE WATER. Water that is hot, but well below boiling brings out the flavor of the beans a million times more than boiling water. Get a glass kettle, and turn it off when you start to get some decent bubble action on the bottom. Once you get that down, zomg - a French press with even t…

Starbucks uses espresso machines that cost 4-5 figures. They have automatic thermal control. They never boil the water. While I agree with your overall sentiment, claiming that Starbucks makes coffee too hot and thus tastes bad is nonsense.

I'm from Portugal and we have a strong espresso culture, as in 90% of the people probably have multiple espresso every day. Many Portuguese agree that Starbucks espresso sucks compared to most conventional cafes. At most people go there for the American type drinks, which are a complete different style (and the coffee flavor hides behind all other ingredients, it doesn't have to be that good).

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#409

Post by brailsafe »

cogman10 wrote: post #186
nunez wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll start to taste the difference once you get that one really-well-made pourover at a place that _lives_ for the love of coffee. There are some coffee beans that have crazy taste profiles when properly extracted with the right water. I had one that tastes literally like a peach and another that tasted like a really nice tea. Or maybe not. Different strokes!

So I can taste differences, but they simply don't matter enough for me. My areopressed coffee with nice fresh locally roasted beans does taste different from a mcdonalds pot. Less harsh, less chemically flavored. But for me those differences don't really matter. They are close enough that I can enjoy both. But I would say I know I'm also weird in that food temp really doesn't bother me all that much. I enjoy my coffe…

Most people can't will themselves to even drink coffee without sugar and cream to dampen the bitterness. You care enough to make your normal coffee at least quite good, but maybe not enough to obsess beyond that, and that's fine, not everything needs to be a hobby.

Additionally, if you mess up a really good steak, that's like $30+, whereas if I mess up a pourover, that's ~$20/(340g / grams per cup); a relatively small risk surface.

Personally, I think if you actually like coffee, most of it should be drinkable, and the really great cups with rare beans that sit on the margins can be appreciated occasionally for what they are when fortune prevails. The bottom of the barrel for me is basically anything "second wave" or straight out of a gas station. Even instant coffee and McDonalds isn't as bad a place that has "Java" in the name or claims to have "gourmet" coffee. Older Italian places often fall into this, because (some) tend use the absolute cheapest Robusta beans with the harshest darkest roast profiles. Robusta tends to be the most rubbery burnt tire tasting crap out there.

Re: Software development with AI is starting to feel like cooking steak

#410

Post by dosisking »

MostlyStable wrote: post #30

I take the point, but I think the author picked a poor analogy. Cooking even an excellent steak is actually not that hard. In fact, I'd argue that it's among the easiest things to master/make at a top level quality at home. Does it require some modicum of attention and understanding? Sure. But starting with a high quality cut, owning a meat-thermometer, and knowing about reverse searing is about all it takes to relia…

The only thing that is hard to cook is Creme Brulee. Pretty much every chef I have ever worked with did it wrong.
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