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Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

artificialanalysis.ai

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Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#121
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And at that cost they're still not profitable. It's going to be a bumpy road ahead...

I thought they are making a profit on API pricing? A quick Google shows somewhere between 50-70% margins on API inference.

API pricing is almost definitely profitable, but at this point I assume it's a small minority of their inference traffic compared to subscription usage, and unlikely to make up for the rest of their expenses on its own.

Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#123
post #107
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I managed to lose around $300 in credits I had saved for some emergency /fast sessions the following way: switch to Fable. Work on the design. Downgrade to Opus for the build. If any of other parallel Opus session has /fast enabled it seems to enable it for the newly spawned session by default. Before I knew it, the $300 was gone. I think the bug is now solved, but it was rather unpleasant. I dont ever remember bugs…

Claude code is just pool quality. They don't make how this thing will behave clear to the user, or give control. They fail at anything that needs an abstraction or model, not just APIs and shell scripts glued together. And "just ask AI" seems to be the default fix. That vibe coding they brag about as if it was a good thing, it shows. Take their notation for describing permissions. The docs are not comprehensive, and…

so many ridiculous "how the fuck did this get through basic QA?" issues with Claude Code.

I can't believe how many critical bugs fall through.

My favourite one is the bug where Plan mode can execute destructive commands inadvertently.

Then all these get closed with `Closing for now — inactive for too long. Please open a new issue if this is still relevant.`. Awesome.

Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#124
post #85
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm dumbfounded to see Opus 5 making SO MANY mistakes in coding simple stuff. Most times, Fable 5 comes out to be cheaper because it nails so many things much quicker than Opus 5.

Weird how different people's experiences are. If it's making simple mistakes something must be wrong in your setup/context I assume? It's been solid for me, beyond the usual LLMisms that all models have. But I keep context pretty minimal.

Agreed. Opus 5 is doing just fine, slightly better than 4.8. It's personality is insufferable, but I find myself catching fewer problems at code review. It generally understands my conventions and isn't so eager to accrue tech debt.

Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#126

Hopefully this boils down to the smaller versions they've teased. In my experience, Qwen models are the closest to the "less knowledge, more intelligence" (yes, the two are hugely correlated!) ideal some tool-dependent tasks need. Even the 3.5 2B can be easily prompted to always lean on tools and not jump to false conclusions (although its actual coding skills are abysmal, as you'd expect).

> less knowledge, more intelligence People produce such models by over-RL-ing smaller models on math and coding tasks. I've found the results capable of neither innovative work nor thinking outside the box. They're straight-A students raised by tiger moments who never let them play freely for hours in the dirt. Perhaps you could say such models are skilled --- but intelligent? Not by my measure. People and AIs alike…

I agree with you to an extent, but you have certainly given me food for thought.

Sticking to LLMs, they seemingly get their intelligence (whatever that really means) from building models rich with knowledge, so you could have a point. But Qwen models seem to be particularly good, even at small model sizes, at maintaining both their own knowledge while acquiescing to and integrating external information in the moment.

Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#127
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I managed to lose around $300 in credits I had saved for some emergency /fast sessions the following way: switch to Fable. Work on the design. Downgrade to Opus for the build. If any of other parallel Opus session has /fast enabled it seems to enable it for the newly spawned session by default. Before I knew it, the $300 was gone. I think the bug is now solved, but it was rather unpleasant. I dont ever remember bugs…

I dont love it. Opus 5 is just a token burner. I use fable plan and spawn opus 4.8 workflows which seems to work alright.

Opus 5 loves to stop working "for safety reasons" and shuts down the session! I avoid it at all costs now. Opus 4.8 has been my default as well.

Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#128

Anthropic is a bit nuts, I had $260 of credits on my max account for the extra usage the other night. It was expiring, so I figured I'll fire up an agentic swarm to deep dive and make some deep changes to some old cold bases.. literally 25 minutes or less, $260 burnt, it didn't get get into the implementation, just wrote a ton of useless plans for the most part. It really opened my eyes to what they expect to charge…

> wayyy overpriced Maybe they consider that hiring a person to do it would have cost at least as much and taken much more time, so paying them is a bargain.

Yeah, but now we can hire the Chinese instead for 1/100th the cost. It's an even better deal.

Plus we get to own, keep, run, do whatever with the model. We don't feel trapped. Moreover, it's something we can truly build on top of and own our own destiny.

Anthropic and OpenAI are the new Oracle (Oracle pre-AI; Oracle is even worse now). Expensive, feels like dealing with a lawyer, and not at all open. They just became infinitely less cool than they were a month ago.

The whole of our industry is going to migrate to open weights. We're smart enough to know this is the better deal and technical enough to be able to pull it off.

The only thing that might save these OpenAI and Anthropic in the near-term is an abundance of enterprise contracts negotiated with non-tech companies. They'll soak consulting firms and F500 companies for "AI" integrations.

Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#129

Opus is still first in Intelligence Index followed by Fable, GPT 5.6, Kimi K3 then Qwen 3.8 max. https://artificialanalysis.ai/#intelligence Our leaderboard combines Arena ELO, AA Intelligence index, latency and speed and goes: #1 Opus 5 #2 Kimi K3 #3 Qwen3.8 Max #4 GPT 5.6 Sol Source: http://pellmell.ai/leaderboard . This jumps around a lot based on the top throughput and latency of whatever provider happens to be b…

All these "intelligence" benchmarks miss something extremely important when using an LLM in a code-agent harness: How it communicates with you about what it did. Opus-5 is practically unusable (for complex tasks) in this sense - its updates are voluminous, and dense with cryptic language (there are numerous reddit threads complaining about this, so it's not just me). I often have to ask it to re-state concisely in pl…

Damn I thought it was my extra instructions, I swear everything it writes is in some shorthand with direct references to variables that literally nobody could figure out unless you literally just wrote that code 5 minutes ago. I had it stop writing comments altogether cause it was always four lines of complete and utter nonsense, and it doesn't even obey that rule half the time. Despite doing an extensive back and forth to make a complete plan, 5 seconds into the implementation it changes its mind and makes another assumption, adding some extra thing that tends to break the entire approach and needs follow-ups to repair or cleanup. Instruction following is basically non-existent compared to Fable, it just does whatever the fuck it wants.

Re: Qwen3.8 Max now ranked as the best overall model by agentic index

#130
post #20

I am so excited for Qwen 3.8 27B. It’s a shame how slow prefill (~3-400) is on a strix halo but it’s such a good model for agentic tasks.

What type of agentic tasks are you using it for (eg how complex)?

For personal stuff, I use it with AnythingLLM. It replaced any Google search for me. For coding, I run opencode though I have been debating switching to Pi. I would argue it’s at Sonnet 3 level.
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