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Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

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Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#41

Post by popalchemist »

hylaride wrote: post #4

This is essentially a story about front-line traditional desktop support/sysadmins at a public university. It's not going to be the same story at much higher paid shops where workers often have equity, good benefits, and the market has provided access to other jobs if you lose yours (in my experience, there are still shortages of qualified and competent engineers). I would like a different method to deal with the pit…

Being in a union isn't about being at one job for life. I'm a member of IATSE (the huge mega-union behind thousands of technical job titles/positions in the entertainment industry, such as film editors, sound mixers, etc; really it's many mini-unions acting as one.) There is really no connection to belonging to a union and being stuck in one job title, in fact the incentives are set up in the opposite direction - the greater the group of people the union represents, the more mobility (and many other benefits) its members get.

You should revist your stance on unions and start by reading up on how they work and what benefits they confer. Assuming you are not in the 1%, a union almost certianly would benefit you. It is a way of equalizing the playing field when the interests of BIG capital conflict with the quality of life and meaningful human experience of individuals.

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#42

Post by hylaride »

Apocryphon wrote: post #25
jamestimmins wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been laid off. It was fine because software is literally the most marketable skill in the world. Edit: But also, this was a pre-profit VC-backed company. If those companies can't lay people off, it's not like you make good money with more job security. Either the company just has less runway (so I still lose my job, just later and with everyone else) or they adapt by hiring fewer people at lower salaries.

Within the last four years?

I was canned early last year. Looking for a new job was mostly fine. It wasn't insanely easy like 4 years ago and I had to network a bit, but there very much is still demand for qualified people.

Would suck to be in this market as an entry-level engineer, though.

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#43

Post by kxjwidjwjdj »

hnav wrote: post #38
jamestimmins wrote: post #14

As a California tech worker (where the article is focused), I have zero interest in joining a union and firmly believe that much of what has been possible as a tech employee (high paying, interesting career) is in part because we don't have unions, and instead employees own equity and get valuable skills. Modern tech workers arguably have the best career deal in the history of humankind. I see no upside in killing th…

The underlying thesis for the valuation of all these AI labs is that 80% of tech workers can be replaced with automation.

Except they can’t and these AI labs know that very well, which is why their marketing push is always so overpoweringly annoying: they have to convince you because they know they are wrong and their product will not deliver what they are promising.

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#44

Post by Animats »

That is a public-sector union. That's different. Political power matters in that space.

A useful private sector union to watch is The Animation Guild, IATSE local 639.[1] They represent traditional animators in Hollywood - Disney, Dreamworks, Marvel, etc. But they've never been able to organize a game company, despite years of trying. They have good contract terms - the contract is a floor on wages, not a ceiling, and overtime is handled well.

Here's what purports to be a complete list of "tech unions" in the US.[2] Only six have a contract with the employer. That's pathetic. The six:

- "Apple Shuttle Drivers Union". Not even Apple employees, but drivers for Compass Transportation. Teamsters.

- "Gimlet Union". Gimlet Media employees. Writers Guild of America. 83 people.

- "Glitch Union". Glitch platform defunct as of 2025. Communications Workers of America.

- "Ringer Union". Affiliated with Spotify. Writers Guild of America. 65 people.

- "Security Guards at Silicon Valley" Service Employees International Union. 3000 people.

- "United HCL Workers of Pittsburgh". Google contractor. 20th largest H1-B visa sponsor in US. "HCL America INC has filed 60,667 H1B applications and 1,294 PERM green card petitions. Avg salary: $102,175." Steelworkers Union. 60 people.

Only the last represents "tech workers", and that company is mostly non US citizens.

Anyone know of other unions which, right now, contractually represent tech workers in the US? Just not finding any real tech worker unionization.

[1] https://animationguild.org/

[2] https://data.collectiveaction.tech/unions

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#45

Post by missedthecue »

triceratops wrote: post #40
missedthecue wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most tech workers I have met with parent commenters opinion have been laid off at various times in their career. I think it's important to note that unions aren't very good tools to avoid layoffs. If there is a company specific hardship, the union can't simply force the company to maintain headcount all the way into bankruptcy. On the other hand if there is a secular change across the industry, the unions can't preve…

> most tech workers don't have bad pay or benefits anyway. But what if they could be even better? This is an industry with 75-80% gross margins, quite unlike any other industry in history.

But despite those margins, it's also an industry with a LOT of unprofitable businesses, unlike any other industry in history. From many people's perspective, if they already earn well, why rock the boat in a high effort high risk way so that the union can negotiate an 8% raise instead of a 4% raise. I don't need the money. And the bad to worst case outcomes could give me serious irreversible buyers remorse.

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#46

Post by alephnerd »

mikojan wrote: post #36
alephnerd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions don't help with that as can be seen with Volkswagen or much of Detroit. Or, from an IP-driven industry perspective, the offshoring of Hollywood following the SAG and WGA strikes in the early 2020s. And if IATSE couldn't stop VFX from being offshored back in the 2000s and 2010s, then tech unions wouldn't be able to either. Edit: can't reply > Without film industry unions, might the offshoring have been undertak…

Volkswagen is perhaps the greatest counter-example. The union in Germany converted every layoff initiative in whole or in part (more often in whole) into partial retirements, backfill stops, reduced working hours, compensation freezes.

100,000 jobs were still lost and there is no one else who can absorb them.

And the experience of the VFX industry is probably the best example of what would happen to a heavily unionized software driven industry.

Edit: can't reply

> are you arguing that it’s better to just straight up fire people

Nope, but there is a real risk that what arises is labor immobility and blocking new entrants.

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#47

Post by Apocryphon »

alephnerd wrote: post #19
DiscourseFan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah just wait until you get laid off

Unions don't help with that as can be seen with Volkswagen or much of Detroit. Or, from an IP-driven industry perspective, the offshoring of Hollywood following the SAG and WGA strikes in the early 2020s. And if IATSE couldn't stop VFX from being offshored back in the 2000s and 2010s, then tech unions wouldn't be able to either. Edit: can't reply > Without film industry unions, might the offshoring have been undertak…

Without film industry unions, might the offshoring have been undertaken even earlier?

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#48

Post by missedthecue »

patternMachine wrote: post #26

This article is really about IT support, not "tech" workers. What tech workers need, if they need anything, is a professional organization like lawyers, doctors, and architects have.

How would that even work? The federal/state government would legally ban people from writing code (like they can legally ban people from practicing law or medicine) unless they have a certificate from the programmer industry guild? I think the low barrier to entry is something that makes the field so interesting and dynamic. Being interesting and dynamic are great things in tech whereas you might not want a real dynamic and outside-the-box doctor or estate attorney.

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#49

Post by adamisom »

hackthemack wrote: post #30
jamestimmins wrote: post #14

As a California tech worker (where the article is focused), I have zero interest in joining a union and firmly believe that much of what has been possible as a tech employee (high paying, interesting career) is in part because we don't have unions, and instead employees own equity and get valuable skills. Modern tech workers arguably have the best career deal in the history of humankind. I see no upside in killing th…

These topics are just so difficult to debate. They are filled with feelings and one person's perspective or anecdote, and it is difficult to drill down into what is true or what is not true. You wrote "Modern tech workers arguably have the best career deal in the history of humankind". How do you know? And, for the sake of argument, let us say it is the best deal in the history of humankind, does that make it fair th…

>How do you know?

Well, if a European dev asked me how I could possibly know if they'd make more in a less regulated environment, I would point to American salaries.

Agree it's hard to know things and that antitrust arrangement was bad. If we're talking policy, we are implicitly accepting counterfactual reasoning (because otherwise why would we change policy).

Re: Unions Can Save Tech Workers and Tech Work

#50

Post by Apocryphon »

patternMachine wrote: post #26

This article is really about IT support, not "tech" workers. What tech workers need, if they need anything, is a professional organization like lawyers, doctors, and architects have.

Tech workers have the IEEE, and the ACM. We need an IEEE/ACM with teeth.
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