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Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

scalex.dev

181–190 of 268 posts

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#181

It's kinda funny there is still software coming out whose security model is "constantly ask the user for permission, and hope they never make a mistake". It's been tried so many times before, and it never worked.

CYA. This approach not working is "the user's fault."

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#183

If there is an objectively correct right or wrong answer for a given command, why even ask? In that case there should be a configuration page where the user sets up if they want commonly used credentials to be accessible or not, and then there's no prompts.

In a lot of cases there is, but you have to be aggressive about allowlisting commands. It can also be difficult to predict when being able to do a read-only command goes from safe to part of a vulnerability chain.

Also the permissioning system for Codex and Claude Code, while not useless, is insufficiently expressive for a lot of tools which are safe if used a certain way, but unsafe otherwise. For example, the 99% use case of ripgrep (searching for text) is safe, but using the --pre flag makes it able to run arbitrary code. Both of their permissioning systems cannot block flags at arbitrary positions though, so you have to resort to either hooks or aliasing if you want to do this.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#184
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...because the self-driving feature turned itself off after detecting the crash in the fractions of a millisecond before the crash was recorded

In a rare bit of still-sane news, the US National Highway and Safety Administration staff aren't dumb: Their policy is to consider whether any automation was active in 30 seconds before the crash. https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde...

the whole concept of having cars with that are almost capable of self-driving is utterly insane, the very least you'd need special training. We are not equipped to deal with something that works brilliantly most of the times but might kill you for no foreseeable reason.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#185
post #184
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a rare bit of still-sane news, the US National Highway and Safety Administration staff aren't dumb: Their policy is to consider whether any automation was active in 30 seconds before the crash. https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde...

the whole concept of having cars with that are almost capable of self-driving is utterly insane, the very least you'd need special training. We are not equipped to deal with something that works brilliantly most of the times but might kill you for no foreseeable reason.

Yeah, that's definitely the frustrating zeitgeist for me these days, which extends to LLMs.

I'd also emphasize that it's not just error rate, but the shape/distribution of errors, and our (in)ability to build control systems around them.

To illustrate, imagine if someone unveiled a car which was unambiguously safer in every statistical measure... buuuut some of its unsafety came from jumping the curb to chase and kill pedestrians, under circumstances we can't predict for reasons we can't diagnose.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#186

I haven't said as much in any of the projects I maintain, but I've set a very high bar for even entertaining AI PRs to those projects. So far I've only accepted ones that are nearly indistinguishable from humans. Typically the rest flame out if I ask for any material changes to the code as submitted. The problem that's going to push me to making an official opinion are low-effort AI PRs. Typically in any backlog ther…

> It was never the 2 lines of code. It's the

Adding to that, there's this negative-space of changes that aren't there because some human briefly thought about them and then decided they were a bad idea.

Even if my human co-workers don't document All those roads not taken, there's a certain amount of trust I have that they would have thought of it in their process.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#187

Perhaps there needs to be a plugin for these tools that uses your webcam to make you Point and Call ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling ) for every single approval.

Recently I was trying to fix something in the production database, and had called over a co-worker as sanity-check.

I ended up telling them about point-and-call because I felt a little silly, pointing to everything on the screen and stating what I believed it said and how that would operate once I pressed the big red button.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#188
post #21

It's kinda funny there is still software coming out whose security model is "constantly ask the user for permission, and hope they never make a mistake". It's been tried so many times before, and it never worked.

What would a serious security model for an agent even look like? I'm sure I've already got a dozen people reaching for the reply button, but slow down there, cowboy. I don't think it's even remotely as easy to define as people think. We have a reasonable concept of how to lock them down really tightly, no question, and I expect that most of the answers in the "leap to mind" category match that. But let's say we'd lik…

[flagged]

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#189
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...because the self-driving feature turned itself off after detecting the crash in the fractions of a millisecond before the crash was recorded

In a rare bit of still-sane news, the US National Highway and Safety Administration staff aren't dumb: Their policy is to consider whether any automation was active in 30 seconds before the crash. https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde...

How many million dollars do you think will reverse this policy?

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#190
post #184
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a rare bit of still-sane news, the US National Highway and Safety Administration staff aren't dumb: Their policy is to consider whether any automation was active in 30 seconds before the crash. https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/standing-general-orde...

the whole concept of having cars with that are almost capable of self-driving is utterly insane, the very least you'd need special training. We are not equipped to deal with something that works brilliantly most of the times but might kill you for no foreseeable reason.

Even pilots are getting this automation-complacency now. A plane crashed because the military jammed GPS and the pilot wasn't used to any backup procedures even though 30 years ago they were the only procedures.
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