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It's not a fear of "AI communism"; it's a fear of competitive market capitalism

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91–97 of 97 posts

Re: It's not a fear of "AI communism"; it's a fear of competitive market capitalism

#91
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) The American companies had not run up debts in the $100bn range. How are Chinese companies financing their buildouts of AI infrastructure? > 2) If there was an open source business model that could create $100bn companies or pay down $100bn of debt. Companies are formed and consult on Linux for example. Idk where this $100bn number comes from but it seems too low to me anyway. > 3) There was a convincing moat su…

> How are Chinese companies financing their buildouts of AI infrastructure? The same way that OpenAI and Anthropic will dig themselves out of the hole; By pawning off the training costs onto taxpaying citizens. > Well you don't need a moat to be a successful business. glances at Nvidia Do you mind repeating that line a little louder? > How do you know folks aren't taking you for a ride instead? I do know that I'm bei…

> The same way that OpenAI and Anthropic will dig themselves out of the hole; By pawning off the training costs onto taxpaying citizens.

Sounds to me like it’s just the same strategy except the US is doing better and can just release open weight models if needed.

> Do you mind repeating that line a little louder?

Sure. You don’t need a moat to be a successful business.

> I do know that I'm being taken for a ride. I pay taxes to this ass-backwards US government, This American AI nonsense is too expensive for my blood, and too censored for legitimate research.

This just sounds like complaining

Re: It's not a fear of "AI communism"; it's a fear of competitive market capitalism

#92
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your statement was about what you think America can do, but not about what it has proven to do already. Sorry that's nonsense. You can't simultaneously project a hypothetical Chinese capability that it hasn't proven it can do (develop the leading models) and then deny the ability of the US to do the same. > China's clones already won. Ok we'll just copy their stuff then who cares because apparently bleeding edge mo…

> You can't simultaneously project a hypothetical Chinese capability that it hasn't proven it can do (develop the leading models) China does lead the frontier. If you're a cybersecurity researcher, a biologist or work in any other censored field, there's nothing that the American models can do for you. The frontier effectively begins where abliterated models can be distributed, and America releases none of them at-sc…

> China does lead the frontier. If you're a cybersecurity researcher, a biologist or work in any other censored field, there's nothing that the American models can do for you. The frontier effectively begins where abliterated models can be distributed, and America releases none of them at-scale.

Doesn’t sound like it to me. I have yet to find a credible source suggesting Chinese companies are ahead. But if they are we can just let them get ahead, distill their models, and release them open source.

> We have a word for this in software actually, it's called "vaporware"

Prove it. This is just an unsubstantiated claim.

> America's stance towards legitimate cybersecurity research is why American businesses like HuggingFace do their incident responses with GLM-5.2. If American AI is "so valuable" that people can't buy the frontier to fix legitimate problems, then China wins by default. It's already happening in several industry-leading American firms, they're not paying Anthropic or OpenAI to fix their real issues.

Why would you think that companies could only use either leading models or nothing? Companies can of course use lower end models (Chinese or American) for various use cases where it makes sense or is cost effective. That is not an indictment of the state of AI in America nor is it suggestive that China “wins”.

> You might as well let China do the frontier research, and let America focus on hand-wringing over the consequences and writing censorship laws to prevent citizens from accessing uncensored Chinese models.

But then China will be screwed and go bankrupt and all of those things because Americans can just copy and distill their models, do it cheaper, and give them away without censorship. Then China will ban them and we’ll just take the lead again. Every criticism you are leveraging against the United States applies to China too. And you know the censorship bothers them more given the Great Firewall.

> You're just insisting that American businesses are right because they spend a lot of money

No, I’m insisting that they are making a crazy big bet, and that bet seems to make sense to me, and absent convincing evidence from you or someone else my priors are going to go with the folks who have trillions at stake versus an internet commentator (which is also me) saying basically “nuh uh”.

> Compare this to how, for instance, Huawei works, and you'll see pretty quickly why ego-poisoned businesses like Apple are the antithesis of free market competition. Apple doesn't want to compete, they want to make money. They love ignoring genuinely innovative technology

And yet, I’ve got an iPhone, iPad, and a MacBook Pro. Apple is a $5 trillion company and captures the majority of smartphone products. You might be right in your idealism, but your wrong about what people care about. This is why I bought stock in Meta a long time ago. I hate that product and I’ll never use it and that’s precisely why I’m wrong as an investor if I did not invest. You don’t have to like the company to accept the reality of their strategy. Apple is ego-poisoned, Hauwei is the tech leader, whatever, most people disagree with you and that’s reflected every day at the cash register.

> There are objectively things that their government can finance that the United States cannot reciprocally copy.

Not quite true, we just have a higher bar. Also planned economies are all but a matter of objective fact less capable of economic performance when compared to market economies. China for example has financial issues right now, over-built, &c.

Re: It's not a fear of "AI communism"; it's a fear of competitive market capitalism

#93
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what you mean by this `Well that's a bad example because a UI isn't a model.`. OpenAI and Anthropic simply refuse to work on signup/login applications, tell you more about cancer or other "biology" or AI stuff. That makes them just a crappy product. I think China's strategy is to sell you products with AI embedded (i.e. robots, washing machines etc) not chat subscriptions like OpenAI and Anthropic. Chin…

> I am not sure what you mean by this `Well that's a bad example because a UI isn't a model.`. Sorry I thought you were talking about the actual UIs of the model providers (desktop apps for example), not whether or not they will build out login processes. > I think China's strategy is to sell you products with AI embedded (i.e. robots, washing machines etc) not chat subscriptions like OpenAI and Anthropic. China sees…

>> You seem to be cheering for the destruction of western companies and democratic strength. Not a great look.

I am cheering for destruction of monopolies and anti-consumer corporations.

It’s quite something to see how both OpenAI and Anthropic didn’t even IPO and already play the regulatory capture card trying to decide for every democratic and sovereign country and every human being what kind of access they should have to public knowledge and IP work they stole. Of course they also charge a handsome amount for that stolen and regurgitated IP.

Not to mention their abhorrent behaviour:” we give you Fable on subscription, no we don’t , now we do again. We don’t store your data, now we store it for 30 days or forever…(in the meantime people get angry) nevermind we promise we don’t store…”. I would very much enjoy to see Anthropic in particular getting bankrupted and Dario homeless(I know the second part won’t happen). They suffer from too much entitlement.

Something else to keep in mind: Google used to be somewhere on 3rd place. Now it is behind Kimi K3(an open model). So we are on the right track.

Re: It's not a fear of "AI communism"; it's a fear of competitive market capitalism

#95
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, not quite. China is not “just china”, it’s a totalitarian regime without freedom if speech, without worker’s rights and without many/most of the freedoms we take for granted. “China wins” is really “modern hyper/technological communist totalitarian regime wins”

> it’s a totalitarian regime without freedom if speech, without worker’s rights and without many/most of the freedoms we take for granted You know, the USA is kinda going that direction. > modern hyper/technological communist totalitarian regime wins Yup, remove "communist" and be afraid of the semblance.

The us is not totalitarian at all.

You can easily mock the orange man (trump) or the wife of the famous Epstein friend (Hilary and Bill) in the US. But you can’t mock winnie the pooh (xi jin ping) in china.

Re: It's not a fear of "AI communism"; it's a fear of competitive market capitalism

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a world where open-weight models dominate, the proprietary frontier models of Anthropic and OpenAI will find it virtually impossible to charge monopolistic pricing. It'll never be economical to run open-weight models compared to paying per token from the big providers. The cost is going to be roughly proportional to energy inputs over time, and they're going to be the ones that have the scale and engineering abi…

But it will be much more economical to pay per token to discount providers running open weight models.

Those providers are not going to end up being price competitive with the big labs unless they are running at the scale of the big labs.

Re: It's not a fear of "AI communism"; it's a fear of competitive market capitalism

#97
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s a totalitarian regime without freedom if speech, without worker’s rights and without many/most of the freedoms we take for granted You know, the USA is kinda going that direction. > modern hyper/technological communist totalitarian regime wins Yup, remove "communist" and be afraid of the semblance.

The us is not totalitarian at all. You can easily mock the orange man (trump) or the wife of the famous Epstein friend (Hilary and Bill) in the US. But you can’t mock winnie the pooh (xi jin ping) in china.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_protests_against_D...

ctrl+f "arrested"

For how long?

I mean, you can also mock xinnie the pooh if you are willing to be lost in the ICE detention center web - I mean the Chinese prison system.

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