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Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

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Re: Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

#41

Post by weego »

jitl wrote: post #28
zuzululu wrote: post #8

i donno...i have some doubts about this cloudflare gives you that instant geo-sync across the world that is hard to beat with Celld do i need to buy bare metal in major continents

> cloudflare the stuff is great when it works but Durable Objects can be quite expensive. whenever i get too excited about em all it takes is a little time trying to price it out to calm me down. > do i need to buy bare metal my first idea would be to run celld on AWS Kubernetes deployed to local zones https://docs.aws.amazon.com/eks/latest/userguide/auto-local-... it’s not “region: earth” like cloudflare but perhaps…

spinning up multiple eks clusters is ridiculously expensive by comparison to paying for durable objects on demand.

Re: Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

#42

Post by srvraw »

jitl wrote: post #29
q3k wrote: post #7

> addressed by name and replicated to an S3-compatible bucket you own; nodes coordinate through that bucket alone, with no control plane or consensus ... but that S3 _is_ the control plane and consensus layer, no? You're just pushing this down the stack to whoever runs that S3 clone.

sure, but s3 is far easier to buy and also far more reliable than typical distributed systems coordinator stuff like etcd/zookeeper/consul. every major cloud offers it, and there’s several decent open source options.

I haven't deep-dived into celld. Does it requires s3's strong consistency to be correct? or is any s3 api compatible object storage sufficient even if they lack strong consistency guarantee?

Re: Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

#43

Post by mrkeen »

jiveturkey wrote: post #31

claim is that very many things are not needed, but they are. they are just provided by the layer beneath (S3). so isn't correctness highly dependent on s3 correctness? was s3 built for that, vs just plain durability? for example, would it be just as reliable with minio? i would prefer a thing that was more self-contained, not dependent on a black box service layer underneath. much apologies if i just have a poor unde…

I think you might be asking too much when it comes to correctness.

It's like fixing all the problems with democracy by putting everyone in charge of their own 1-person election.

Re: Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

#45

Post by thefreeman »

wett wrote: post #35
rtpg wrote: post #33

Could someone explain to me in practice how one would use these to do… a thing? Like a straightforward use case? Having trouble figuring out what these are for

Simple example 1:35 -7:40 https://youtu.be/qF2PuYnBahw More practical example (serverless WebSockets) https://youtu.be/FgWVoryZ8PU

This was a great video. Thanks!

Re: Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

#47

Post by jitl »

srvraw wrote: post #42
jitl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure, but s3 is far easier to buy and also far more reliable than typical distributed systems coordinator stuff like etcd/zookeeper/consul. every major cloud offers it, and there’s several decent open source options.

I haven't deep-dived into celld. Does it requires s3's strong consistency to be correct? or is any s3 api compatible object storage sufficient even if they lack strong consistency guarantee?

it’s relying on consistency w conditional writes

Re: Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

#48

Post by jitl »

weego wrote: post #41
jitl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cloudflare the stuff is great when it works but Durable Objects can be quite expensive. whenever i get too excited about em all it takes is a little time trying to price it out to calm me down. > do i need to buy bare metal my first idea would be to run celld on AWS Kubernetes deployed to local zones https://docs.aws.amazon.com/eks/latest/userguide/auto-local-... it’s not “region: earth” like cloudflare but perhaps…

spinning up multiple eks clusters is ridiculously expensive by comparison to paying for durable objects on demand.

it’s all relative and it really depends on your scale. if your usage fits in the included compute and request count you get for $60/yr it’s absolutely gonna be cheaper. on the other hand, you can run EKS clusters in usw2, use2, apne1, apne2, euc1 for $8600/yr based on my napkin math. to me that does not sound expensive, i work at a company where $8600 is pocket change. but $8600 is much larger than $60/yr for region: earth.

Re: Celld: Self-hosted, distributed Durable Objects

#49

Post by ryanrasti »

sakesun wrote: post #23

Wonder if this will become common practice from now on ? > Pull requests are disabled. Coding agents make it too easy to send a large, > low-context change that costs maintainers more time than it saves. > Thoughtful contributions are welcome; please understand the code, > keep the patch focused, and respect the review time you are asking for. > > Send a git format-patch attachment to ...

Funny, the same thing stuck out to me from Cloudflare OS's README (https://github.com/cloudflare/cloudflare-os#contributing):

> At this time, we are not seeking outside contribution.

> AI has made writing code easy. The hard part, today, is not writing the code, but reviewing it, making sure quality stays high, and keeping the product coherent. In that light, unfortunately, external code contributions are "donating" the easy part of the job, while creating more of the hard work.

Feels very weird, but is logically sound: owners know exactly what they want and so they can work with Claude et al to iterate on features faster than with most drive-by contributors.

It reads like an "end of an era" but I imagine the steady state will be somewhere in the middle: high trust, high context contributors will still be able to contribute meaningful work.

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