Live data from Hacker News

Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

intellinews.com

331–340 of 341 posts

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#331
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you just read an argument, and then completely ignored it, instead started brining up other aspects of red meat. That most red meat is very co2 expensive compared to getting the proteins from other sources is a relevant argument for many of us, and not a particularly 'strange obsession' for those of us caring about reducing our co2 footprint.

Sorry I thought my point was clear. Grazing animals are part of a cycle. Any methane from digestion is broken down in the atmosphere and bound again to plant life and recycled. This is vastly different from drilling rock and letting out new carbon into the atmosphere at a drastic rate. That goes to my second point; if you keep cows (or other animals) and feed them grain, and use artificial fertilizer and add other fo…

Methane is a short-lived potent greenhouse gas. In regards to the effect on global warming there is no cushy cute 'circle of life its all natural dude ' effect, methane release heats the world.

Even ignoring methane gas releases the production of red meat causes higher emissions of co2 than comparable plant-based proteins. These emissions originate from feed crop production, synthetic and organic fertilizer application, manure storage, land-use changes like deforestation for pastures, on-farm energy use, and meat processing and transport. As you see most of these are 'running costs', and reducing global meat consumption would reduce emissions.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#332
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saving a human over an animal in a one-off emergency doesn't justify breeding and killing billions of animals for taste every single day, those aren't the same situation. And if you agree we shouldn't eat humans who aren't fully functional, then the line is obviously not being drawn at capacity, it's being drawn at the fact we are members of the same species. In my view that's not an ethical argument, given animals s…

I can't eat the grass growing in the pastures on the hills around me, but some animals can. Then it's just a question who eats those animals, either us human or other predators. I think it's unhealthy when people start to anthropomorphize their pets and map that to every other animal in existence. It's very similar to when bored rich kids pretend to be representatives of the working class.

Sure, but the cold reality is that 99% of meat consumption in the US is from factory farms, not from animals roaming freely on grass. It's not like these animals are all roaming free, naturally reproducing, and we or other predators are hunting them.

We are breeding them, bringing them into existence to meet the demand for meat, keeping them in small cages, and then killing them.

It's not about anthropomorphizing. But if you love animals, it's hard to justify conditions where they can't even turn around, give birth in their own feces, and are then gassed. I'm sure, even without anthropomorphizing, you know that animals have emotions, memories, bonds, etc. They feel these horrible conditions intensely.

Ultimately consuming meat is causing those animals to be raised, kept in poor conditions, and killed. Those conditions are deliberately hidden from the public as the meat industry knows that demand would suffer massively if they weren't.

Anyway, thanks for engaging on the subject and for the discussion. That's much more than most people do and I appreciate it.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is of course not something any sane person will believe once he looks at the overwhelming volume of evidence to the contrary from countries that have not committed energy suicide.

I'd like to see that overwhelming evidence. Everything I've been able to find suggests that renewables, since they have a ~zero marginal energy cost, displace the most expensive dispatchable alternatives. But wholesale pricing seems to be heavily influenced more by the highest priced energy source in the mix than the lowest, so at this point the wholesale price drop is modest (but still a drop). Retail pricing has to…

> Everything I've been able to find suggests that renewables, since they have a ~zero marginal energy cost, displace the most expensive dispatchable alternatives

Renewables aren’t dispatchable, so the two aren’t comparable.

Any increase in renewables in a grid, beyond a small and insignificant fraction, requires a significant increase in dispatchable electricity generation to match.

Coal can load follow to a limited extent because steam can be vented and base load is very predictable.

Gas turbines are very dispatchable, and combined cycle gas turbine can load follow well.

The argument against renewables being cheaper than the other options is that there isn’t any example anywhere to date where renewables have gone and electricity has become cheaper.

It’s a fact that anywhere renewables have penetrated the market to any extent worth mentioning, electricity has become much more expensive.

Countries that haven’t conducted the renewables experiment haven’t experienced anywhere near the same rise in electricity prices.

Wind and solar, especially in a place like Australia which is extremely geographically dispersed, requires massive infrastructure investment to get the electricity to the grid.

Complete with the destruction of vast swaths of land through national parks, parks environmental types would have previously nailed themselves to trees to defend.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#334
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't eat the grass growing in the pastures on the hills around me, but some animals can. Then it's just a question who eats those animals, either us human or other predators. I think it's unhealthy when people start to anthropomorphize their pets and map that to every other animal in existence. It's very similar to when bored rich kids pretend to be representatives of the working class.

Sure, but the cold reality is that 99% of meat consumption in the US is from factory farms, not from animals roaming freely on grass. It's not like these animals are all roaming free, naturally reproducing, and we or other predators are hunting them. We are breeding them, bringing them into existence to meet the demand for meat, keeping them in small cages, and then killing them. It's not about anthropomorphizing. Bu…

I'm happy our ancestors domesticated animals, therefore we don't really have to hunt them as savagely as other predators do and we can instead bread them for our consumption. I'm all for having better condition for factory farmed animals and I'm fine with closing down those that mistreat animals and even punish or jails people doing it, but that is a completely another kind of argument compared to the initial question how are animals and humans different. Trying to equate animals with people and blanket ban all meat consumption and trying make make people feel bad for eating the meet is not going to achieve a better world.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#335
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I thought my point was clear. Grazing animals are part of a cycle. Any methane from digestion is broken down in the atmosphere and bound again to plant life and recycled. This is vastly different from drilling rock and letting out new carbon into the atmosphere at a drastic rate. That goes to my second point; if you keep cows (or other animals) and feed them grain, and use artificial fertilizer and add other fo…

Methane is a short-lived potent greenhouse gas. In regards to the effect on global warming there is no cushy cute 'circle of life its all natural dude ' effect, methane release heats the world. Even ignoring methane gas releases the production of red meat causes higher emissions of co2 than comparable plant-based proteins. These emissions originate from feed crop production, synthetic and organic fertilizer applicati…

You are simply wrong.

The whole of life, plants and animals - depend on the "cutsy" parts.

Basic atmospheric science.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#336
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the cold reality is that 99% of meat consumption in the US is from factory farms, not from animals roaming freely on grass. It's not like these animals are all roaming free, naturally reproducing, and we or other predators are hunting them. We are breeding them, bringing them into existence to meet the demand for meat, keeping them in small cages, and then killing them. It's not about anthropomorphizing. Bu…

I'm happy our ancestors domesticated animals, therefore we don't really have to hunt them as savagely as other predators do and we can instead bread them for our consumption. I'm all for having better condition for factory farmed animals and I'm fine with closing down those that mistreat animals and even punish or jails people doing it, but that is a completely another kind of argument compared to the initial questio…

I agree with you on that. I wouldn't personally eat meat but I don't have a problem with someone eating meat if they are sure where it came from and the animal lived a good life (until the end, of course). The hard reality is that 99% of meat in the US and a similar amount in Europe comes from factory farms. Those Factory farms are not prosecuted for the way they mistreat animals. The meat industry is simply too economically important, and animals end up suffering.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#337
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Methane is a short-lived potent greenhouse gas. In regards to the effect on global warming there is no cushy cute 'circle of life its all natural dude ' effect, methane release heats the world. Even ignoring methane gas releases the production of red meat causes higher emissions of co2 than comparable plant-based proteins. These emissions originate from feed crop production, synthetic and organic fertilizer applicati…

You are simply wrong. The whole of life, plants and animals - depend on the "cutsy" parts. Basic atmospheric science.

Whats your actuall claim? That methane release is irrelevant for global warming? Or that beef production excluding methane is not more co2-expensive than plantbased protein production? Or both?

Anyway, feel free to make an actual argument. Both of the claims above of is contrary to established science, so you must say something more than 'you are wrong'.

Methane traps 81 to 84 times more heat than carbon dioxide over a 20-year period, but drops to 28 to 30 times more heat over a 100-year period.

Cows create methane (or rather the microbes in their bellies) from co2 and hydrogen, they do not 'capture' it from somewhere. More cows -> more methane, which heats the world more than the co2 used to create that methane would have heated the world.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going vegetarian would only cut it if you stayed clear of dairy. Gram for gram it's better to eat chicken than cheese for the climate.

I switched to fortified soy milk and haven't looked back. Milk is tasty but soy has less sugar as well and now I prefer it. Cheese is harder to make a substitute but eating it 1-2 per year satisfies my craving.

Right? I eat a mix of cereal and fruits for breakfast. I switched to soy milk at one point and can't go back. Normal milk is so sweet, it overrides any dry fruit flavor.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U.K. energy is expensive because it’s all based on the cost of gas. Onshore wind and solar is about £40-50 Offshore wind about £60 Gas about £120 That’s generation cost, before subsidies and levees But we still haven’t put in an emergency legislation to make it easier to build cheaper energy.

It also takes time. You've doubtless seen headlines about the Contracts for Difference Allocation Rounds 7 and 7a, or perhaps even Round 8 taking place now. But those headlines are about the step where you find out who won these auctions because that's when that magic price number is known, wind power for £68.35 per MWh or whatever. Going from the fun headline to actual contract signing in which there's a legal promi…

I suspect plug in solar will make a massive difference. Plug in batteries would be even more but there’s too many people making too much money for that, at least this year.

Re: Wind and solar overtake fossil fuels in Germany for the first time

#340

I'm confused by the US conservatives' full court press for fossil fuels and against wind/solar. I believe it's mostly about protecting existing money/power structures, but I don't really know. I mean, where does all Trump's energy on this topic come from? Is it owning the libs or courting donors or the Heritage Foundation/AEI? If it's really about protecting fossil fuel wealth, is there a long-term plan or are they j…

Not so much this specific structure as the structure at all, the ownership of energy resources. In a country like the US somebody owns the coal. They didn't make that coal, but we decided they can own it anyway, and so even though they didn't make the coal and it's never going to be replaced, just destroyed for all time, they get to capture the economic value from that. Nobody, even in the US, owns the wind, and a wi…

This point is very useful to me. I consider myself a pretty good engineer and a not so good entrepreneur. Maybe I'm not so good at it because I find it far more interesting to think every detail of PKCE, something only tangentially related to my work, than I do to think about how to make all the money.

It would never have occurred to me that the appeal of carbon based fuel over renewables is that carbon base fuels are not renewable. There is less of a moat. Huh!

Post reply on HN