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Mario Meets Pareto

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Re: Mario Meets Pareto

#121

Post by drdexebtjl »

paytonjjones wrote: post #34
__s wrote: post #25

> You probably won't pick a driver sitting on the edge of the frontier because you want some balance between speed and acceleration for super mario kart speedruns go with bowser/dk: https://www.speedrun.com/smk/runs/zp68nr8m That seemed to hold up for Mario Kart 8 too going with Bowser at the edge of their pareto frontier, https://www.speedrun.com/mk8 needing acceleration is a skill issue

Speedruns are for playing the track solo, right? If you're playing normally (with other people and items), even the most skilled player can't avoid getting hit by some universal items and will benefit from acceleration. Hence, as the author notes, the balanced build with Peach being favored among competitive players.

Acceleration is not very important at a high enough level because you can mini-turbo up to top speed when you get hit.

Re: Mario Meets Pareto

#122

Post by [deleted] »

bspammer wrote: post #69
crtasm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP first link is to a speedrun in the all cups category, played with items and computer opponents. There's a video included. People do speedrun the individual tracks solo in other categories.

For a speedrun you don't care about 100 failed runs as long as you get the world record once. You're basically hoping to get lucky that the computer opponent won't hit you. Obviously you're going to pick the greediest (i.e highest speed) choice in that setting, that doesn't make it good in normal gameplay.

[deleted]

Re: Mario Meets Pareto

#123

Post by nightpool »

__s wrote: post #25

> You probably won't pick a driver sitting on the edge of the frontier because you want some balance between speed and acceleration for super mario kart speedruns go with bowser/dk: https://www.speedrun.com/smk/runs/zp68nr8m That seemed to hold up for Mario Kart 8 too going with Bowser at the edge of their pareto frontier, https://www.speedrun.com/mk8 needing acceleration is a skill issue

This used to be true on older patches but it's not at all how top players play these days. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejt52UgnhAo for an example of the meta that prevailed for top-level versus play around the end of MK8's lifespan (Yoshi Biddybuggy Roller or Yoshi Teddybuggy Roller depending on your preferred drift style) or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvrCP50Gfj4 for a breakdown of some of the latest time trial world records. At the beginning of the game's lifecycle top speed was the most important stat, but as more tricks were developed and the game's balance was adjusted, having faster and more consistent miniturbo boosts became much more important.

(Mario Kart World, which isn't covered in this article, has a more standard speed vs acceleration trade off but in that game high-max-speed (heavy) combos have even worse problems due to the way the rail grind mechanic was implemented and what seems to be an unforeseen interaction with the coin curve see e.g. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sPyur6BkiOs)

Re: Mario Meets Pareto

#125

Post by Barbing »

cortesoft wrote: post #117

There are a few things that are assumed to be true when talking about the Pareto frontier here, but aren’t always true. One, that more of something is always better, e.g. it is always better to have more speed. Maybe, but what if having too much speed causes you to run off the track and perform worse? It could be that there is actually a peak in the utility of speed that declines as it increases. There could also be…

> [is it really] always better to have more speed[?]

I'm reminded of two things that in a way support your premise with the second example being more relevant. Both are outside what’s being discussed exactly, more about knock-on effects maybe, anyway:

The first is that Angry Birds found the speed of launching birds into structures was important for engagement: it cannot be too fast.

The second is from a commenter somewhere who said they had or worked on software that took ten minutes to boot in the morning, which is when employees made coffee and talked and brainstormed. Everyone was disappointed when after refactoring, the software booted immediately.

Re: Mario Meets Pareto

#126

Post by Xirdus »

rtkwe wrote: post #108
Xirdus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't refuse to enable JS. I do, however, refuse to use website with broken scrolling. It makes me physically sick.

Does this site do that to you?

Very much so. It's one of the worst cases (but not the worst, not even the worst this week) I've seen around here.

Re: Mario Meets Pareto

#127

Post by latexr »

Barbing wrote: post #125
cortesoft wrote: post #117

There are a few things that are assumed to be true when talking about the Pareto frontier here, but aren’t always true. One, that more of something is always better, e.g. it is always better to have more speed. Maybe, but what if having too much speed causes you to run off the track and perform worse? It could be that there is actually a peak in the utility of speed that declines as it increases. There could also be…

> [is it really] always better to have more speed[?] I'm reminded of two things that in a way support your premise with the second example being more relevant. Both are outside what’s being discussed exactly, more about knock-on effects maybe, anyway: The first is that Angry Birds found the speed of launching birds into structures was important for engagement: it cannot be too fast. The second is from a commenter som…

The second story made be think of XKCD 1172.

https://xkcd.com/1172/

Re: Mario Meets Pareto

#130

Post by redbell »

> You can identify all efficient drivers that, unlike Koopa, are never dominated on both speed and acceleration. Together, they form what is called the Pareto front (or frontier).

Coincidently, this Pareto Front concept is currently on the front page on HN at #10 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49096439) and apparently, it was posted before this post.

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