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Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

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Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#61

Post by PaulRobinson »

busterarm wrote: post #36
PaulRobinson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It needs critical mass, but then it cascades. If you read through the description, what they talk about is that the culture is built around the idea of the individual being part of something bigger, and that consideration and respect for that something bigger (other people), is core to your own identity. That's not hard for a lot of cultures, but it's almost impossible for most cultures in the Western hemisphere, and…

The cracks are already there though in Japan where this is starting to fall apart and has fueled a substantial rise in anti-immigration sentiment there. Particularly at specific groups that are not assimilating (but affecting basically every immigrant). I feel like half your post is dancing around not saying this.

I'm not saying this, because I'm not aware of this. I have a friend who is enjoying living in Osaka, but I wouldn't feel qualified to talk about Japanese sentiment towards him or any other group of non-natives.

I'm saying that culture spreads through fear of being ostracized and the cost of not conforming to that culture. This is true in any country. It seems Japan has a "broader" and "firmer" culture that is rooted in respect to others, but it would take some serious effort for a similar culture to take hold in Europe or the US, I think.

A sense of "non conformity" leading to issues is not unique to Japan though, in Europe it is described as a problem with "multiculturalism".

The British (of which I am one), have spent thousands of years stealing the best bits of immigrant culture but seem to have forgotten that (or have been unable to absorb, for whatever reason), for the last ~60 years. That's leading to a rise in far-right sentiment and a growing desire for mono-culturalism. I can see evidence of that in Germany, France and other European nations. I could easily imagine it appearing more in Japan.

Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#62

Post by boron1006 »

prteja11 wrote: post #35
danudey wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or come to downtown Vancouver. I live in a small apartment, but within four blocks I have a community centre with gym, a pharmacy, a post office, a grocery store, a small bakery, the best liquor store in the city, three banks, a hot pot restaurant, a physiotherapist/massage therapist office, a vet, a dispensary, multiple hairdressers, an optometrist, several restaurants, two places to get gelato, a public plaza with…

While you are correct about Vancouver downtown, once you get o suburbs like Langley, Coquitlam, they are no different that what you are calling out American cities for. If we limit this to downtowns, there are several cities in America that are similar (Boston, Seattle, SF, SanDiego, Austin, NYC to name a few).

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Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#63

Post by timr »

mikhael wrote: post #54
timr wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd be interested learning how you've come up with that - it's disinformation. i'm speaking from extensive, direct experience. I live here and have eyes. But tell me more about "disinformation." Tokyo metro's standard for accessibility is to have one route that is accessible from street level to the platform. That's fine, but it's a far cry from every entrance being accessible, or even just ensuring that you don't…

i use the subway here nearly everyday - many different routes, not just touristy areas, often to small stations on the outskirts of the city, or other places i haven't been, just for fun. i don't think i've ever seen a station with only one elevator, it's always at least one platform-to-ticket-gate, and one ticket-gate-to-ground (maybe that's what you meant). the worst i've experienced has been a wheelchair-accessibl…

> I don't think i've ever seen a station with only one elevator, it's always at least one platform-to-ticket-gate, and one ticket-gate-to-ground (maybe that's what you meant).

Well, first, I'm talking not just about the subway, but all rail lines, which is a higher bar.

Setting that aside, what I meant was what you've inferred -- there's typically one elevator path that will get you out of an "accessible" station. Yes, that (usually) requires one elevator per platform to work at all, but it still leaves most exits inaccessible in the average case.

I started this subthread only by saying that Tokyo is not particularly wheelchair friendly. If you use one, I don't know how you could possibly dispute this. It's a land of staircases, and I've been repeatedly foiled just trying to move heavy luggage.

I grant you that in Japan they will usually bend over backwards to make something work, but I really feel for disabled folks here.

Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#64

Post by ifwinterco »

busterarm wrote: post #36
PaulRobinson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It needs critical mass, but then it cascades. If you read through the description, what they talk about is that the culture is built around the idea of the individual being part of something bigger, and that consideration and respect for that something bigger (other people), is core to your own identity. That's not hard for a lot of cultures, but it's almost impossible for most cultures in the Western hemisphere, and…

The cracks are already there though in Japan where this is starting to fall apart and has fueled a substantial rise in anti-immigration sentiment there. Particularly at specific groups that are not assimilating (but affecting basically every immigrant). I feel like half your post is dancing around not saying this.

This is the flip side of East Asian societies where everything is polite and orderly: they're also extremely conformist (sometimes stifling so), and the conformity and good manners are maintained by strict social policing (it's not much fun to stand out and be different)

Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#65

Post by mikhael »

timr wrote: post #49
mikhael wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd be interested learning how you've come up with that - it's disinformation. i'm speaking from extensive, direct experience.

> I'd be interested learning how you've come up with that - it's disinformation. i'm speaking from extensive, direct experience. I live here and have eyes. But tell me more about "disinformation." Tokyo metro's standard for accessibility is to have one route that is accessible from street level to the platform. That's fine, but it's a far cry from every entrance being accessible, or even just ensuring that you don't…

yeah, that's mostly correct, but i don't see it as a barrier. i don't think an elevator needs to be slammed down next to every staircase. if there's a way in, and a way out, i consider that a win. will i lose maybe 5 minutes because the accessible entrance is not in the most convenient location that day? perhaps. but it's just that - an inconvenience.

on the staff support: i don't really see any problem here at all. in fact, i think the service that the staff provides is truly excellent. most lines have nearly level train-to-platform gaps, but if i feel like i need a ramp, i can ask the attendant at the gate, and they will arrange for someone to quickly unfold a portable ramp when the train arrives, and for someone to do the same at the destination, exactly where i arrive. (coming from the US, can i imagine this level of service at any US city? uh, yeah, no.)

Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#68

Post by timr »

mikhael wrote: post #65
timr wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd be interested learning how you've come up with that - it's disinformation. i'm speaking from extensive, direct experience. I live here and have eyes. But tell me more about "disinformation." Tokyo metro's standard for accessibility is to have one route that is accessible from street level to the platform. That's fine, but it's a far cry from every entrance being accessible, or even just ensuring that you don't…

yeah, that's mostly correct, but i don't see it as a barrier. i don't think an elevator needs to be slammed down next to every staircase. if there's a way in, and a way out, i consider that a win. will i lose maybe 5 minutes because the accessible entrance is not in the most convenient location that day? perhaps. but it's just that - an inconvenience. on the staff support: i don't really see any problem here at all.…

> if there's a way in, and a way out, i consider that a win. will i lose maybe 5 minutes because the accessible entrance is not in the most convenient location that day? perhaps. but it's just that - an inconvenience.

I get that, and I also don't think they need to plop an elevator at every staircase, but there are so many stations where they could have ramps or some other minor improvement to make more exits accessible. And if the one path drops you on the wrong side of the tracks from your destination, that's often more than a five-minute problem -- my own home station has one elevator on the north side of the tracks, but if your destination is on the south, you must exit, cross a busy intersection, and cross the tracks at grade.

> on the staff support: i don't really see any problem here at all. in fact, i think the service that the staff provides is truly excellent.

I agree. I just made a similar comment on your other response. Compared to many places in the world, they're at least trying.

Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#69

Post by thereisnospork »

wat10000 wrote: post #53
thereisnospork wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What qualifies as good manners varies from situation to situation, but the concept of acting with good manners is hardly complicated (conform to the expected behavior of the situation). Enforcment is a matter of encoding the rules and then applying a carrot and/or stick -- same as any other rule.

"Conform to the expected behavior of the situation" is incredibly complicated. What is the situation? How do you determine what the expected behavior is? What exactly does conforming consist of? It takes humans years to learn how to do this. Entire books are written on the subject. A major medical disorder affecting millions of people includes a persistent difficulty doing this specific thing. Even normal people have…

"Stand to the right on an escalator"

"Put trash in a trashcan and not on the ground"

That wasn't complicated. And took 30seconds. Are there a lot of rules? Of course. Is knowing them all in advance possible? Of course not. Don't confuse that with 'complicated'.

Fine people who litter. Have an ai voice chide people who stand on the wrong side of an escalator. Both simple.

Re: Four simple rules behind Japan's most liveable cities

#70

Post by mikhael »

timr wrote: post #63
mikhael wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i use the subway here nearly everyday - many different routes, not just touristy areas, often to small stations on the outskirts of the city, or other places i haven't been, just for fun. i don't think i've ever seen a station with only one elevator, it's always at least one platform-to-ticket-gate, and one ticket-gate-to-ground (maybe that's what you meant). the worst i've experienced has been a wheelchair-accessibl…

> I don't think i've ever seen a station with only one elevator, it's always at least one platform-to-ticket-gate, and one ticket-gate-to-ground (maybe that's what you meant). Well, first, I'm talking not just about the subway, but all rail lines, which is a higher bar. Setting that aside, what I meant was what you've inferred -- there's typically one elevator path that will get you out of an "accessible" station. Ye…

i can't speak for all rail lines through tokyo - the ones i've taken have been fine. quick searching suggests they're probably mostly fine. the standard for me is not "is it easy?" but "is it possible?" or maybe "is it not a huge pain in the ass?" - it's always cleared that for me. signage could often be better, i'll definitely say that.

tokyo more broadly: it's improving, but yeah, it's nowhere close to 100%. obviously i won't disagree with you there.

and i didn't mean to come off as too harsh. but i imagined someone reading your comment and being deeply discouraged (as i might have been, many years younger) when in reality tokyo has possibly one of the best and most accessible subway systems in the world.

it's not all roses, but outside of the US, most of the world is not so wheelchair-friendly (in my experience and talking to disabled folks, at least). (and don't get me started on NYC, which is just wheelchair-hostile.)

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