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On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

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Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#121

Post by jfyi »

hparadiz wrote: post #109
jfyi wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were the one that brought up payments though. Nobody else specified. They just said it could be hacked, which you seem to agree with.

I don't agree that your example makes sense. Don't feel like writing a wall of text. Zero justification for a locked down system.

What exactly was my example? You agreed with me already. Kind of odd to flip around now.

> which are like you said handled

Also, I corrected your misstatement about payments. They have absolutely nothing to do with decomp, and certainly can't be used to dismiss the entire attack surface of a mobile banking app. Your example is complete nonsense.

You are really digging a hole here.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#122

Post by kotaKat »

dainiusse wrote: post #87
_imnothere wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know it is easy to just take and hack No you don't, otherwise we wouldn't have banking apps on it.

It is a bit different. My app doesn't rely on 3rd party services at all. It just provides functionality. It is not about breaking into someones account. I just know that the app can just be cracked - there are plenty of sites that do that for android. Because you can't just load your app on iOS - this is just not possible (well perhaps there are a few percent of some jailbroken iPhones, but that is neglibile). On And…

> Because you can't just load your app on iOS - this is just not possible (well perhaps there are a few percent of some jailbroken iPhones, but that is neglibile).

No, smart normies are sideloading with the 7-day limit and leveraging automation to have their pirated apps automatically re-sign and re-push. If you pay the $99 to Apple for a dev cert (or like $10 to a service that'll sell you a cert off someone's account), it'll even just sign out for the year for you. No screwing with Xcode or anything, just drag-drop-sign. Even gives you the options to patch the app out at resigning so you can do hacks and mods like the good old jailbreak days.

https://sideloadly.io/

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#123

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

actionfromafar wrote: post #119
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone downloading a photo editing app and then having a rootkit installed in the background that waits to empty their bank account is not a workable situation. Yes, that would be absurd. Thankfully, that isn't how root access has worked in a very very long time if ever. If photo editing app requests root access... you click deny and uninstall it.

Some percentage will click Allow.

Yes, that's Google's excuse for banning side loading. It's a terrible reason.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#124

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

armadyl wrote: post #118
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone downloading a photo editing app and then having a rootkit installed in the background that waits to empty their bank account is not a workable situation. Yes, that would be absurd. Thankfully, that isn't how root access has worked in a very very long time if ever. If photo editing app requests root access... you click deny and uninstall it.

Because so-called “trusted” apps that you do give root to have no chance of getting compromised, right?

Pretty low, honestly, but being careful about that is why I tend to make it ask every single time.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#125

Post by zb3 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #95
K0balt wrote: post #55

Seriously question; why is the answer to this not a phone that can just run GNU/Linux? Is it just the lack of application support? I mean, you’ll have blobs, but at least at the os level you’ll have options? Can’t you run an android sandbox in Linux? Docker phone? I’m sure I’m missing something here, but what?

Energy efficient Linux is hard. Vendors aren't doing the hard work for anything but Android. So, most hardware won't work (for more than a few hours) using normal Linux. postmarketOS and other projects are working tirelessly at bringing Linux to phones. SailfishOS too. Plenty of Android apps even run inside these runtimes. App compatibility relies on apps supporting (very) old Android versions, though. It's also flak…

> Vendors aren't doing the hard work for anything but Android.

Because of Google's cartel-like structure where OEMs get more profit by joining, Google shares some revenue from screwing the user.

> postmarketOS and other projects are working tirelessly at bringing Linux to phones.

postmarketOS has ZERO partnerships with any OEM, their device support is "as is" and done by volunteers, not by vendors like Qualcomm or Mediatek.

> SailfishOS

This one is interesting, but currently the "Jolla Phone" can't be bought "right now", you can order for October..

I see some hope in Murena too, they partnered with Fairphone / Gigaset, so the device support is real there, but it's still Android..

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#126

Post by kmeisthax »

dainiusse wrote: post #87
_imnothere wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know it is easy to just take and hack No you don't, otherwise we wouldn't have banking apps on it.

It is a bit different. My app doesn't rely on 3rd party services at all. It just provides functionality. It is not about breaking into someones account. I just know that the app can just be cracked - there are plenty of sites that do that for android. Because you can't just load your app on iOS - this is just not possible (well perhaps there are a few percent of some jailbroken iPhones, but that is neglibile). On And…

The only difference between iOS and Android when it comes to loading code onto your device is that, on iOS:

- You have to setup a developer account with Apple first, and dev-signed apps can only be installed onto specific provisioned devices only[0]

- The free tier of that developer account is inconvenient for actually using dev-signed apps as a daily-driver, and won't let you use certain entitlements

- Apple's dev tooling is designed to make it feel like you can only sign code you're compiling yourself

On the surface level, this might seem like a big difference, because Android has a command that lets you load arbitrary APKs with no particular fanfare or ceremony, while Apple's dev signer is buried inside of a compiler/IDE suite. But people have built tools to make it easy to take an arbitrary .ipa, sign it using your dev account, and resign it once the free tier's 7 day limit expires.

Of course, this still requires you actually go and obtain an .ipa of the app you want to use, and Apple distributes App Store[1] app binaries[2] encrypted. That part requires actually having a jailbroken device to dump the app binary with. But once the app is cracked anyone can install it.

If you want an actual "uncrackable" app you need to put a critical part of your app's workflow onto a server, and then have your app send an iOS DeviceCheck or Google Play Integrity attestation that the phone is running the actual App Store/Google Play version of your app. But that's also incredibly draconian behavior towards your customers as it basically forces your app to be always-online... which is why a disturbingly high number of games do this.

[0] Yes, I know about Enterprise signing, but Apple specifically forbids distributing Enterprise-signed apps outside of your organization and those apps get revoked all the time. Signing with your own dev account is way more robust and that's what most iOS power users actually use.

[1] I have no clue if FairPlay encryption applies to EU-DMA-compliance signed apps.

[2] ONLY binaries - all your resources are unencrypted and can be downloaded off the App Store CDN and inspected by anyone. Code signing signatures do apply to resources, AFAIK

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#127

Post by yorwba »

zb3 wrote: post #66
yorwba wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no shortage of general-purpose computing hardware in the EU. If you need some general-purpose compute to make a car, an oven, or a phone, you can get it. That consumers mostly buy special-purpose devices that don't always allow them to make full use of the possibilities of the hardware is hardly a sovereignity challenge.

Show me where I can get a general-purpose computing hardware with 8GB+ of RAM that fits in my pocket and has a touchscreen.

Fairphone? https://www.fairphone.com/the-fairphone-gen-6#f_slide_1

But also, I doubt any polity would have its sovereignty undermined if their general-purpose computing hardware doesn't fit into their pockets.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#128

Post by ChocolateGod »

tstactplsignore wrote: post #43

This sucks. I use adb to uninstall all of the system apps like facebook, youtube, web browser, etc. to give myself a minimalist, distraction-free phone that still has niche apps, maps, and communication apps. Might have to look into the expensive light phones as an alternative now if this update hits my phone.

They can still be disabled.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#129

Post by fsflover »

develoopest wrote: post #5

I don't understand why ensuring general-purpose computing is not a priority of the European Union. All that talk about sovereignty, and we are giving full control of our digital lives to 2 American companies.

Because the Free Software Foundation Europe (https://fsfe.org) that fights for this has a too low support of people. Please support them if you care about it.

Re: On non-rooted Android 17, ADB uninstall of system apps fails

#130

Post by charcircuit »

dugite-code wrote: post #34

Ok this is not as bad as I feared, disable still works and that uninstalls any updates that app has gotten. It was always a bit surprising you could uninstall an app in a "read only" partition

It would only uninstall it from the /data partition which would cause it to fallback to the version in the /system partition, taking you back to the version included in the last update of your phone's OS.

If an app is installed to both partitions Android uses the one with a higher version.

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