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Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

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Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#391

Post by jatora »

_luci_ wrote: post #377
jatora wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine, if you will, wanting a narrow application to assist you personally in some side hobby, that is data driven but would take weeks or months to set up. Now imagine it's done in hours (and not even purely focused hours) and does everything you need it to do in an instantly verifiable and rewarding way. Imagine doing this on the regular for all of your various use cases. And then imagine not trying to sell or mar…

I think you missed the entire point of this discussion, but you also have a very gross view of the world! > Somehow purists think there's something wrong with the process of that. I say there's something wrong with them, perhaps on the spectrum of OCD. Are you really saying it is a sign of serious mental illness because programmers want to enjoy their craft? You do realize our entire industry exists because of the pa…

I think you misunderstand. The entire industry exists because of the passion of engineers that program, not just programmers. And i specifically called out 'purists' for a reason, and yes I do believe OCD and perfectionism is a component. It would help if you read my comment critically rather than purely adversarily.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#392

Post by [deleted] »

GPerson wrote: post #363
jatora wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. And the AI detractors in this thread are the same I think, and are virtue signalling.

I’m not virtue signaling? I’ve shared exactly my experience. People experience reality differently and that’s not some affront on you.

[deleted]

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#393

Post by ltbarcly3 »

Applejinx wrote: post #346
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #164

It's because they fetishize arcane knowledge and LLMs make all their arcane knowledge easy. That's all it is. If I wanted to go make my own NES game from scratch 2 years ago it would have taken months of full time work, and I would have had to learn a lot of new things, and most likely would have joined and participated in that community. Now I can do it this afternoon. I'm not going to because it's pointless now, yo…

If the things you're thinking about are intrinsically so totally worthless outside of impressing people with them, and if that's all there is, please do not attempt to do those things, with or without an LLM. Heck, if everything is worthless, please, please try not to do anything :)

If it's valuable why do they want to ban people from doing it with help from an LLM. You are just mad, and I understand why you are mad, but you're not right.

The thing I'm saying is worthless is making a game in 2026 for a game system that people literally couldn't give away for free in 1998. Due to nostalgia and the fact so many were thrown in the trash surviving systems now have some limited cash value. Newly made games do not have a nostalgia value. The reason people do it is to prove they can and to show other people. Anyone can now (no proof needed really, it's super easy) and nobody cares. It's like climbing Everest, and Claude is your Sherpa. Nobody is impressed by it anymore.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#394

Post by jatora »

GPerson wrote: post #363
jatora wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. And the AI detractors in this thread are the same I think, and are virtue signalling.

I’m not virtue signaling? I’ve shared exactly my experience. People experience reality differently and that’s not some affront on you.

Woops i responded to the wrong comment sorry!

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#395

Post by FeepingCreature »

GPerson wrote: post #389
FeepingCreature wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, I think I read something into your comment that wasn't really in there... Personally speaking, the feeling of "getting the thing and then having the thing" - the personal todo app, the custom apps - is why I do anything in programming. Programming is the project where I can speak a spell and then I get a nice thing. That's very cool, and I do like the process, but at the end of the day the nice thing is…

I actually think that’s a great use of AI, and sounds similar to some of my use cases. “And I think, to be honest, the enjoyment I would have gotten out of the programming part once, was very largely "type-2 fun"- an annoyance followed by a nice reward.” Yea I’ve had similar thoughts. Other thoughts have been something like “I’ll have different types of projects and try to be thoughtful in advance about what this is…

Yeah! And now the mod has fixed input events, I can actually have a proper configuration GUI for this, and I could I suppose write a GUI toolkit for the nth time, but it kind of feels like the sort of thing that's barely cool the first time, lol. And I already know if I let Sonnet or Opus do it, it'll work fine after the third try or so, and what's more it's going to look a lot better. And I'll enjoy using it every time instead of half-dreading finding another bug.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#396

Post by RugnirViking »

boomlinde wrote: post #335
Ekaros wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I really don't understand how differently it seems that AI for programming and for anything else is treated. I don't think there is insignificant group who would say that using LLM to write a book does not make you an author. Or make a song musician. Or draw a picture a painter or artist. This just somewhat baffles me... Or maybe the LLM for programming people all believe that you are as much artist if you use A…

I've seen people here insist that LLMs enable everyone to make music or art. It's diametrically opposed from my own view that making something is the process of making something, neither the result of nor the motivation for that process. My retort is usually a variation of one I've already posted in this thread: they do that to the same extent that taxis enable everyone to drive, which is something most people will i…

isn't this clearly a misunderstanding between you and hypothetical AI art approver?

They're talking about the result, one must think. The idea that people who could not have approximate pictures of ideas that lived in their head can now have those things. They didn't create them by an in depth process, of course, and would be wrong to pass it off as though they did. But there is some value to the enjoyment gained from that existing (whether that relatively trival enjoyment is offset by other harms is for the reader to decide).

You're talking about the process and/or the developing of the skill of crafting and thinking about images better.

We also lack words to talk clearly about the distinction here around "make". Did I make a piece of art if I created a file on a computer in photoshop and then printed it? or did the printer make it? Did photoshop make it? (imo, all are true, but in differing senses of the word make). It seems to me that there is a sense that, no matter how trivial their involvement, a user of some AI art app is "making" something, in the same sense that steve jobs "made" the iPhone. In both cases, an engineer that literally designed the iPhone or an artist that spent years would perhaps rightfully feel upset by such characterization, but to get across the point cleanly is harder.

It's the same for the taxi. If I can't drive (perhaps I never learned, or some flaw with my body doesn't let me), a taxi does enable some things I could never do before. I am, of course, not literally the one driving. But if I can get to the shop myself now, there is something there.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#397

Post by newswasboring »

GPerson wrote: post #200

Programming is nice because you have lots of different scales of structure to think about, and your program slowly comes together. You see it improving over time as a result of your efforts. You also build your skills and learn. It’s really a nice activity. AI systems basically change that whole formula. I’m not sure how people get joy out of constantly vibe coding new projects. It feels like binge watching Netflix s…

> Programming is nice because you have lots of different scales of structure to think about, and your program slowly comes together.

Programming is nice cause of this for you. Other people have other preferences. When I got my first LED to blink, I wasn't thinking about the elegance of my code. Same for when moved sprites or made a async stateless compute system for MATLAB analysis. There are people who are driven by the artifacts they produce. That's just how our brains are wired I guess, outcome oriented. I see nothing wrong in that.

Btw, I feel like there is this view that all people using agents are the apocryphal "vibe coders". That is just not true. The process of creation remains the same. Break it down into smaller pieces. Work those pieces till a piece it done. Make sure it all comes together. People seriously using these agents are not writing "implement gta6. Make no mistakes".

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#398

Post by GPerson »

vidarh wrote: post #388
GPerson wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me that’s a slippery slope. It’s not really clear what parts of my hobby project are the good parts and what parts are unfulfilling. When I start including AI too much I end up feeling that none of it is fulfilling. When I do things manually I feel pride in the details however, even though those same details on another day would make me feel like I’m wasting my precious life. I spent 2 months having Opus build a…

To me it's very easy: If I want to do a change by hand for the joy of doing that, I do. But if I want a piece of functionality now and don't want to set aside time to build it, I let an agent do it. It boils down to whether I dream about the outcome or how to do it. E.g. I have no emotional attachment to my window manager - I wrote it (by hand, originally) because I wanted a specific set of functionality, not because…

I think there’s a lot of need for people to help others understand how to healthily engage with this technology. I do struggle with turning it off once I get started on it.

I also believe I see the future coming very fast. I’ve been addicted to watching television for weeks on end or playing games for months on end. I don’t want to fall into something like that again. The vibe coding thing feels exactly like that to me.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#399

Post by effed3 »

ephimetheus wrote: post #129
effed3 wrote: post #104

to someone hobby programming using LLM seems like running a marathon using a bicycle, you cross the finish, but at the end is not the same as running only by your only forces. Others look only at the results, so LLM are only a tool (actually without a clearly instruction manual i suspect). But programming (and so many others works) is not only about making, but learning and developping skills. When an LLM is not avai…

I enjoy programming as a hobby and have done it for many years. I also enjoy building stuff with LLMs. Why is one pure and sanctioned and the other one is bad? Why do I need other people to decide this for me?

if is good/bad for you is only to you, nobody else decide for you, but reasoning about general consequences adopting this thech is to everyone

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#400

Post by hlynurd »

derektank wrote: post #372
embedding-shape wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some people will be paid more for a job that takes intelligence or years of study. Sadly, it seems so, even if the effects of the jobs on daily life differ a great deal sometimes. The world would succumb faster if we had no garbage collectors, yet they get less pay than a programmer who the world could easily survive without? Makes no sense to me.

We would all die in a week if we went without water, yet water is cheaper per gallon than gasoline or printer ink or perfume. It’s a question of scarcity and supply curves. Water, even clean water, is not particularly scarce if you leverage industrial systems to purify it. Other products require much more complicated supply chains and are produced at a much smaller scale than water, which makes them more rarer and mo…

You're explaining how things are but the parent is indicating that's not how things should be.
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