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Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

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Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#311

Post by TwoFerMaggie »

Ekaros wrote: post #275
NoboruWataya wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the great things about hobbies is that you can enjoy them whatever way you want. But honestly is it not more accurate to say that you are now a hobbyist prompter, rather than a hobbyist programmer? I get the "its just a tool" mentality and I guess LLMs can be used that way, but if you are not touching a line of code yourself then it seems less analogous to using power steering and more analogous to just taking…

What I really don't understand how differently it seems that AI for programming and for anything else is treated. I don't think there is insignificant group who would say that using LLM to write a book does not make you an author. Or make a song musician. Or draw a picture a painter or artist. This just somewhat baffles me... Or maybe the LLM for programming people all believe that you are as much artist if you use A…

A renowned author would still write. They don't suddenly start managing a team of junior writers and instructs them how to write.

A programmer that has climbed up the ladder in their field, on the other hand, often stopped coding themselves. Instead, they manage others who code, or provide vision/direction on the project.

I think it really depends on what people on the senior level of your field do. If they mostly move to managerial roles, then it's much more likely they'd embrace LLM.

Ironically I observe this in academia too. Professors (who often stopped doing hands-on research, but only provide guidance to postdocs and grad students in their research) tend to embrace LLM more than the fields you mentioned.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#312

Post by pjmlp »

iso1631 wrote: post #280
pjmlp wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are driving an EV, or lucky to own Audi, Volvo, BMW or Mercedes top class of vehicle, most people are on manual.

In the UK, it's about 30% automatic on the road, but automatics have outsold manuals for years and about 80% of new cars sold today are automatic.

Doesn't compute with 30% on the road and 80% sales, also I doubt middle to low class cars are being sold with automatics.

Unless those 80% new cars are EVs.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#313

Post by elmer2 »

samiv wrote: post #285
kypro wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unfortunately just the result of technological progress. People for centuries have crafted extremely hard to acquire skills over decades only to find their labour being made completely worthless due to automation or better alternatives disrupting their industry. Carpenters, hatters, cobblers, miners, weavers, calculators, etc... We can get mad about it, but it just is what it is. Ultimately for most people th…

"It's not clear how civilisation functions if humans become effectively useless and the only thing of value is one's ownership of wealth producing assets." You can get a hint of this by looking at the developing countries with high income inequality. Few rich people who typically own all the countries wealth (and access to it's natural resources) while everyone else lives in a slum.

This also happens as taxes and regulations sharply increase over time.

California is a good example.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#314

Post by kypro »

gliall_err wrote: post #288
kypro wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unfortunately just the result of technological progress. People for centuries have crafted extremely hard to acquire skills over decades only to find their labour being made completely worthless due to automation or better alternatives disrupting their industry. Carpenters, hatters, cobblers, miners, weavers, calculators, etc... We can get mad about it, but it just is what it is. Ultimately for most people th…

This is a sophomoric oversimplification. The US and Europe might have lost a lot of craftsmanship knowledge at a social level. Yet, what is left is so far ahead of what has ever existed in countries in South America for example. And China has gained a lot. Witness that youtuber trying to make grill brushes in the US. These differences have an impact in terms of opportunities and competition. It's easy to sit at home,…

> Look closer and you'll see that what happened in the UK in the 1700s was in fact enabled by a long and deep tradition of craftsmanship that only got enriched by the rise of new power sources. Craftsmanship today is vastly more advanced than it ever was before industry.

I suspect the horses are healthier and stronger than in the 1700s too. I'm not sure I understand your point?

I'd agree that the niche of extremely high quality, bespoke craftsmanship still exists, and that in some cases jobs were augmented by technology rather than entirely replaced, but the point still stands that the work these people used to do has been automated and disrupted by technology.

The fact some people upskilled or reskilled as a response is analogous to coders today. All I'd question is the extent of the disruption we'll see as a result of AI – I worry that this time things will change much more quickly and there may not be plenty of other jobs for people to upskill / reskill in to.

But if that's not true then perhaps whatever software engineering exists in the future will be far more complex than what software engineers have done for the last few decades.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#315

Post by tecleandor »

wincy wrote: post #54
thunfischtoast wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, without knowing, that art often is similar to the hobby programming communities the thread leads with: the end result is interesting not by itself, but through the process that made it. We have feelings about art pieces because we feel with and through the artist. Can't do that with silicon. The Mona Lisa, even if the end result were exactly the same, would be dead boring had it been produced by the hand of…

Totally disagree. I just want cool pictures hanging on my wall. If they’re totally unique and nobody else has them, even better. I can have a mounted picture of me on a horse like the famous Napoleon painting. I don’t care at all about the dude who painted it, I don’t even know his name. The only exception is real photographs of some event, like I bought my friend a picture of the Falcon 9 taking off against the back…

> Now every person can make satisfying music.

That "make" is doing some heavy lifting there. Even handwaving all the ethical stuff with art and LLMs, Christopher Nolan doesn't "make" music when he contracts Hans Zimmer and gives him some guidance. Not I "make" a cabinet when I do the same with a woodworker.

And who's that satisfying for? For the one clicking the "generate" button? For the Sumo people getting VC money?

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#316

Post by wccrawford »

fhd2 wrote: post #229
alkonaut wrote: post #224

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

Nice analysis! I would perhaps add that LLMs are pretty helpful at (2) in my experience, as long as you don't turn your brain off. (As a Google/SO replacement, mainly.) I have about three modes, working with LLMs: A) Just use them for (2), do (3) and (4) myself. B) Just use them for (2) and (3), but with very fine grained instructions - to the point where it barely saves me time. C) Use them for (2), (3) and (4), but…

I agree. If you use the AI for (4), it's pretty much guaranteed to hallucinate whatever it wants and then approve it. For small projects, it might be good enough. For anything serious, it's not.

I find I get the best results when I just use it for (3), and sometimes a bit for (2). Going in with at least an idea of how to make it work has the best chance of ending up with a good changeset. And if you already know how to make it work, don't leave it to chance. Tell the LLM what to do, then let it do it.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#317

Post by embedding-shape »

elmer2 wrote: post #310
embedding-shape wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The older I get, the more I realize how many problems in society is because there are different "classes" of people. The more we can eschew that, the better it becomes for most people. While yes, I also see myself as having "clearer thinking" than many people , maybe because of the thousands of hours building and maintaining software, I'm not of the impression that my life deserves a higher status than others merely…

We all should be in the same 'class', but some people will be paid more for a job that takes intelligence or years of study. The older I get, I realize some people never change, will always have the same backwards or harmful thinking, and I avoid them instead of just accepting it.

> some people will be paid more for a job that takes intelligence or years of study.

Sadly, it seems so, even if the effects of the jobs on daily life differ a great deal sometimes. The world would succumb faster if we had no garbage collectors, yet they get less pay than a programmer who the world could easily survive without? Makes no sense to me.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#318

Post by criley2 »

alkonaut wrote: post #224

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

While I agree with the premise that there are Thinkers and Shippers, I reject labeling of tinkerers and entrepreneurial. There's nothing entrepreneurial about working for a big business and shipping cool things.

But you're ultimately right, some people want to solve sudokus and some people want to change the world, and the sudoku solvers are really upset that a Sudoku Solver and World Changer 9000 device is widely available, because it spoils the fun they have with sudoku.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#319

Post by iso1631 »

pjmlp wrote: post #312
iso1631 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, it's about 30% automatic on the road, but automatics have outsold manuals for years and about 80% of new cars sold today are automatic.

Doesn't compute with 30% on the road and 80% sales, also I doubt middle to low class cars are being sold with automatics. Unless those 80% new cars are EVs.

Of course it does, half the cars on the road are over 10 years old, when manual outnumbered automatic

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#320

Post by Frieren »

sharperguy wrote: post #283
draftsman wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing code without an LLM is akin to cooking a meal yourself, as opposed to something in between hiring a private chef and pulling a slot machine lever. When I cook a meal for myself or my loved ones, I become deeply familiar with the ingredients and the recipe. I am a good cook. Every decision, small and large, I make myself. Using feedback, I can tweak the components and the process. However, if I order food and…

I don't see it the same way. I see it as akin to building a machine which can do the cooking for you. There is a lot of experimentation in terms of how you can construct that machine and how you can set it up, and for some people the payoff is in exactly this process.

> I see it as akin to building a machine which can do the cooking for you.

More like buying a microwave and frozen food. Unless you are actually training the LLMs.

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