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Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

blog.fogus.me

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Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#301

A hobby is something you enjoy the process of doing, not just the end result. Everybody likes a clean home, but cleaning is rarely a hobby. LLMs expedite achieving the end result. Take from that what you will.

For this specific example, cleaning your home counts as exercise and you are proud you put effort and got a good result.

It is an example of something that has hobby-like characteristics.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#302
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the economic problem that programmers had until recently been highly regarded because steps 2-3 were hard. "Open source" solved this partially by utilizing the labor such (relatively) well-paid people gave away "for the love of it", but it was not nearly enough to put most out of work. Now there is a plagiarism machine built on top of decades of this work that seemingly solves 3 and promises to solve 2 (…

Maybe I'm just old but people talking about being in programming for "status" or to be "highly regarded" really irks me. I'd rather see the entire field burnt to the ground and replaced by robots than to have it become a status profession like lawyering.

I meant it as an euphemism for "it's universally sought after (i.e., you'll probably find a job)". Few would think being a programmer gives you some kind of special "social status"; it's always been a "nerd" hobby that happened to pay (relatively) well.

(I guess by now you have a solid retirement plan; maybe if the field had been burnt to the ground while you were younger, you'd have had a different opinion.)

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#303

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

> Even though it's 5 different phases, it's just "3 layers" of programming.

I'd sharpen this to: it's 3 layers of software engineering (2, 3, 4), and 1 layer of programming (3).

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#304

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

[flagged]

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#305
post #3

One factor is that we struggled for a long time under proprietary tooling, and don't want to go back there.

Irrelevant. Open models are competent code generators. No you don't need millions of H100 hours to build them.

Not for everyone. Not all of us (especially unemployed) have the big bucks to buy the machines required.

But you can download gcc in a cheap laptop and create a theorem prover e.g.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#306

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

You are obviously missing the GOTO statement in your list but the other part is hobby projects tend to be architecturally small.

The moment you have more devs architecture becomes the overwhelming concern, and this is why professionally LLM usage explodes since the LLMs can implement bits while the humans work on the actual hard work of making sure they fit together properly in the intended way.

I have encountered a lot of people that view coding as a therapeutic exercise, and they were already a problem pre AI wave, now they are only going to be a hobby at least.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean-room_design There is a lot of legal history of doing new designs with influence from reverse engineered sources. The basic rule is that you can't have someone familiar with the original code involved with writing the new code. LLMs are a new area, but I would expect that feeding the original source into an LLM context and saying "Write this, but different" wouldn't qualify as a cle…

would using one LLM to create a spec, and another with only access to the spec doc count as clean enough?

I have done this. Despite using Fable for the spec, and having it double-check the spec a couple of times, it still wasn't airtight. And at some point, the implementing LLM accessed one file of the original code on the Web.

I have by now deviated quite a bit from the original (well, original...) spec.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#308

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

This is a really useful framing. I also love step 3 and when I delegate it to an LLM it takes the joy out of my work. But where I've found LLMs most useful is steps 1 and 2. They are terrible at steps 1 and 2 on their own, but they have a massive amount of knowledge that can help. I think a human and an LLM working together here is the best scenario.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#309
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still plenty to acquire around in second hand.

Not really.

Actually yes. Come to southern or eastern Europe, on plenty of those side road dealerships with signs on their windscreen, or parked in random places with a telephone number on them.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you elaborate? I think back in the 90s when I was a teenager I thought it to be a good thing that there is a rise in status for a class of people characterized by clear thinking.

The older I get, the more I realize how many problems in society is because there are different "classes" of people. The more we can eschew that, the better it becomes for most people. While yes, I also see myself as having "clearer thinking" than many people , maybe because of the thousands of hours building and maintaining software, I'm not of the impression that my life deserves a higher status than others merely…

We all should be in the same 'class', but some people will be paid more for a job that takes intelligence or years of study.

The older I get, I realize some people never change, will always have the same backwards or harmful thinking, and I avoid them instead of just accepting it.

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