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Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

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Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#321

Post by mlrtime »

ab5tract wrote: post #234
ericcumbee wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property Tax revenue, and they are not a drain on services like schools, roads, fire department, police department etc. I'm watching this debate in a town that i am from and where I live. Our choices are pretty much be swallowed up by growth from neighboring cities and become a bed room community or solar farms and data centers. The downside with becoming a bedroom community is you risk creating a negative tax base.…

Property tax revenue seem highly unlikely when the DC operators have been given enormous tax cuts.

A tax cut or PILOT vs vacant land in a small city with a shrinking tax base is still net positive tax increase.

If the options are 0 or 50% off some tax rate table, the 50% is still better than nothing.

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#322

Post by bruce511 »

kube-system wrote: post #246
bruce511 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there are data centers that make a noise. And if you're firing up a generator that's a separate issue. But the noise from computer fans and power supplies is easy to ameliorate and can be a trivial permit requirement. The noise is all high-frequency which means most anything will stop it. Frankly building an earth berm around the site would kill all the noise and make it better to look at. Throw in some tree…

Absolutely zero noise from any datacenter comes from the fans or power supplies of the equipment inside of it. The equipment is inside of the building. Datacenter noise comes from the chiller units.

Fair enough, but again that noise is easily dealt with by proper planning and permitting.

Given that chillers exists in lots of places it seems like this is a solved problem.

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#323

Post by bruce511 »

lovich wrote: post #224
bruce511 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there are data centers that make a noise. And if you're firing up a generator that's a separate issue. But the noise from computer fans and power supplies is easy to ameliorate and can be a trivial permit requirement. The noise is all high-frequency which means most anything will stop it. Frankly building an earth berm around the site would kill all the noise and make it better to look at. Throw in some tree…

> The noise is all high-frequency which means most anything will stop it. Frankly building an earth berm around the site would kill all the noise and make it better to look at. Throw in some trees and you're done. Have any of these data centers done this? All the ones I’ve seen haven’t even put up a sound baffling wall. If a data center’s owner has taken steps to ameliorate or completely prevent their negative extern…

The developer (likely) won't do it in isolation.

But the point of building permits, and building regs and so on is to create requirements that let the development live in harmony with the community.

If local govt is not stipulating the requirements then that's on them.

People don't need to be "against data centers" they need to be "for no noise" and so on.

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#324

Post by cucumber3732842 »

dividedbyzero wrote: post #292
fragmede wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that there are two approaches for water: open loop and closed loop, and you can guess correctly at what they mean. The problem is that's subtle and we can't have subtle conversations about things.

The problem is not that subtle, the only somewhat subtle point is that people don't differentiate between the datacenters of yore that were built sort of well and sustainably and the ones built in the current mad gold rush AI construction frenzy. The former aren't very problematic, often pretty good neighbors even, while the latter are nightmare fuel and will purposely not be built to be quiet and safe and stay withi…

>the only somewhat subtle point is that people don't differentiate between the datacenters of yore that were built sort of well and sustainably and the ones built in the current mad gold rush AI construction frenzy

So you're saying that all the rules and laws and best practices that HN has cheered for over the years that apply to new construction and new industry and claim to be about sustainability and environmental protections (among other things) didn't actually do what they were sold as being able to do?

Either the new ones are cleaner (I suspect they are but the difference is probably mostly on paper), or we all got lied to.

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#325

Post by user43928 »

svara wrote: post #281
tptacek wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about data center concerns in Chicagoland, where I'm hearing it, is that data centers are better neighbors than almost any other commercial real estate. The data centers in Aurora are surrounded with prairie green space; everything else, including the nicest office buildings, are a sea of eyesore asphalt parking lots. I get there can be real concerns, locally-specific, about energy usage (again: they…

AI company leadership are telling everyone, and that's paraphrasing only lightly, that there's a chance AI will destroy humanity, and will probably cause mass unemployment, so we need to put datacenters everywhere. So why do people not like datacenters? Go figure.

They are also universally saying that AI's benefits far outweigh the challenges and will produce extraordinary improvements in prosperity, health, and human capability.

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#326

Post by throwaway2037 »

e40 wrote: post #310
deepsun wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO noise pollution is the easiest one to solve: just put all the AC fans on the far side of the datacenter. If not enough, surround with noise absorbing panels. If not enough, just get a different fan design, more coolers, and run them at half speed. They can even afford Noctua :) I bet nearby rail yard produces way more loud noises. Datacenter is like the cleanest and most ecofriendly business you can imagine.

> Datacenter is like the cleanest and most ecofriendly business you can imagine. Tell that to the residents of Memphis.

As I understand, initially, the power production was done on-site using gas turbines. Later, these were moved to Mississippi and a high voltage powerline connected the two sites. After this change, why is the Memphis data center not clean and ecofriendly for residents of Memphis?

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#327

Post by throwaway2037 »

bryan_w wrote: post #214
throwaway2037 wrote: post #107

If anyone is curious, from the photograph in the article, I have geolocated the existing business park property here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/kYyHuEWcAZkrypWa7 The whole area is (1) office parks (including large parking lots), (2) warehouses/light manuf'ing/"big box" stores, (3) enormous(!) rail yard (freight trains), (4) the Nashville Zoo. I don't have any skin in this fight, but I think it is a missed opportunity.…

One of the guys leading the effort is active on threads (probably twitter too). He has no interest in negotiating. He is gloating over his win hardcore and has very absolutist views when it comes to datacenters

Hat tip for the additional source. I have no love for people in this fight looking for a "total win/defeat". It is a dumb way to approach large construction projects. Can you share some links to the Threads account?

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#328

Post by michaelt »

tptacek wrote: post #78
mixdup wrote: post #24

I don't know what DC Blox was going to put in this particular datacenter, but they are a "traditional" colocation datacenter company. Maybe this one would've been superdense GPUs with a jet engine as electrical generator causing all kinds of noise, but it's also just as likely this would've been a project that 5 years ago no one would've batted an eye over, and wouldn't cause any issues in the local neighborhood That…

The funny thing about data center concerns in Chicagoland, where I'm hearing it, is that data centers are better neighbors than almost any other commercial real estate. The data centers in Aurora are surrounded with prairie green space; everything else, including the nicest office buildings, are a sea of eyesore asphalt parking lots. I get there can be real concerns, locally-specific, about energy usage (again: they…

> The funny thing about data center concerns in Chicagoland, where I'm hearing it, is that data centers are better neighbors than almost any other commercial real estate.

Data centres are better neighbours than a steelworks, or a pet food factory, or a fish processing plant, or an oil refinery, or a big distribution centre. By the standards of industrial zones they're low noise, low smell, low traffic, low injury, low pollution, low disaster risk. Low jobs and low tax too unfortunately, but you can't have everything.

The thing is, data centres are often built on open fields. So from the perspective of locals it's not data centre vs dark satanic mills, it's data centre vs open countryside.

Re: Nashville uses eminent domain to block data center near zoo

#329

Post by da_chicken »

ToValueFunfetti wrote: post #192
da_chicken wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's exactly the truth: https://www.ncsl.org/fiscal/subsidizing-servers-how-states-a... The legislatures are betting that the data centers stick around or bring in jobs. They won't. They think something that expensive must require a ton of jobs to maintain. It doesn't. They need low taxes, cheap land, cheap water, and cheap power.

I'd think that the claim >Nobody invests a billion dollars in a facility without first lobbying to get an exemption from property taxes. Most states in the US have passed incentives that include sales and property tax exemptions. is not at all supported as "exactly the truth" by a link that lists 11 states with property tax abatements, most of which are not full exemptions. Am I mistaken?

11 states have them specifically for data centers.

Most states have some form of this in general: https://www.michiganbusiness.org/services/pa-198/

What's more, having a statutory abatement is only one way to get around property taxes. What you also see are things like a industrial revenue bonds. Those don't require a special law. They just shift the tax burden to the public.

Again, the idea here is that you're incentivizing investment and that will be offset by (a) jobs created by the facility, since labor doesn't get any tax abatement or deferment, (b) they will be bringing goods and service production to the area, and (c) eventually they will pay property taxes. For something like a traditional auto factory, that's a great incentive.

The issue is that data centers have almost no local labor required. A single McDonald's is likely to employ more individuals than a data center will. And the service they provide is essentially independent of the location. It doesn't matter if it's nearby. That provides almost no advantage. And with such a small labor pool and such a large potential tax burden, there may be no economic incentive to remain in the location instead of building a new data center by the time you reach the end of the abatement.

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