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Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

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Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#221

Because people that enjoy programming for programming's sake don't want an LLM to do the programming for them - isn't it obvious? It's just like with any other hobby, people who like car racing created rules that force you to drive yourself, even though they'd get faster lap times with electronic driver aids. People who enjoy grappling created rules that force you to grapple, even though striking could win a fight fa…

My boss tried to make me interested in agentic programming by showing me how "productive" the creator of OpenClaw is.

All I see is a fast food factory. Sure it's interesting that you can produce so much so quickly. But what is produced is endlessly uninteresting to me. It doesn't help that all the harness building is just SEO in disguise. Trial and error.

I don't doubt that agentic programming makes it possible to produce faster, but it also comes at a great cost for me, which is that I largely don't enjoy my job anymore. If I was given the choice between that and halving my salary I would have chosen the latter.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keeping in mind that I'm going strictly off the commit[0], a bit-packing layout is very much the kind of thing which is not subject to copyright in the first place. Neither are algorithms. Ideas, in general, are not subject to copyright: expression is. So "lifting ideas from other engines", as you yourself put it, is entirely licit, no matter how you do it. _Should_ you credit others when so doing? I err on the side…

I think that's true, but I'm not sure if this would characterize itself as "lifting ideas". I mean, it's one thing to personally take the idea and re-implement it yourself elsewhere. But I have to believe there could be an argument, that having an inference algorithm take the original source and re-implement it in the context of your engine might count as derivative work. A particular work is deliberately supplied at…

Whatever the legal outcome, whether it's ultimately decided that people can or can't "get away" with using LLMs to license-launder code, it's undoubtedly a dick move.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#223
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen what most people do for jobs all day? They do repetitive brainless things, not always new and interesting work. For all of those people, doing this is at least something you do sitting down alone in an office and so they will be queueing to do this.

And LLMs are what make so many jobs feel repetitive and brainless. Jobs that were engaging, interesting, from which people were learning, developing expertise over time, are now prompting + babysitting agents

Many jobs have been repetitive and brainless since long before LLMs. I hate AI as much as the next guy, but come on.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#224
Programming has five phases effectively:

1) You figure out what problem to solve.

2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem.

3) You actually implement the solution.

4) You see the solution work, for yourself.

5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on.

If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you see steps 2-4 as mostly a chore. If you're a tinkerer, you don't care much for 1 and 5, and you see 2-4 as the whole point of programming. I'm a tinkerer. I'd be happy to just write code and throw it away. Coding is like solving sudokus. I could skip steps 1 and 5 forever. I don't ever need to show any code to anyone. In fact, most of the time when programming I do steps 2 and 3 and even skip 4. I don't even finish! I work weeks on something until I lose interest, and I know that in order to even run it, it would be several more weeks. A PoC is enough. Or just a half one. It's just code-to-structure-thoughts, not to create anything finished.

The 5 phases look kind of symmetric. The outermost layer (1 and 5) are the entrepreneurial steps. If you're a product owner or CEO, you might work strictly at steps 1,5. Then steps 2-4 are the managerial/architectural steps. If you're a very senior IC at a large company, you might work at this level, without actually doing much coding. Only the inner most step (3) is the manual creation of source code. Even though it's 5 different phases, it's just "3 layers" of programming.

The problem as I see it is that I enjoy step 3. And LLMs are good at step 3 almost exclusively. So they just pick the best bit of this dish, and leave me with the rest.

If you're an entrepreneurial type, the LLM appears to take the _worst_ bit of the work from you. Great.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#225
It's not just the hobby programming community. Professional software developers too.

At least against as it is now, where everyone with Claude suddenly becomes a software engineer.

Software engineering is more than pushing code to main/master.

It's requirements. Acceptance criteria. Design. Documentation written for humans. Reviews. Operations. Maintenance. Understanding the product. Understanding the system you're changing.

Right now, I struggle with PRs being opened by people who don't fully understand the code they're changing, replying to review comments with Claude generated answers pasted back like a meat proxy...

What I see at work is that we're pushing code faster than ever, while losing the big picture of our product, or the architecture of our own network, even faster.

We're also generating documentation at an incredible pace. The problem is that the people writing it often don't understand it either.

Code has become cheap.

Engineering hasn't.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debate is about whether or not the new code qualifies as derived . They can remove all of the literal code matches from the codebase, but if it was written by having an LLM study the original code and then write something similar, it's hard to argue it's not a derivative work.

I still think this question is a future minefield, as well as the question of what happens if an LLM outputs a patented algorithm

This is not really a question. Accidental patent infringement is still patent infringement. Just because you used new trendy technology to do it does not mean that it isn't infringement.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#228
we don't meet enough people to worry about why or how productive someone is ... productivity is half mania, half obsession and 100 % in vain except in life critical fields where LLM speed doesn't matter because querying DBs is fast and making associations within _contexts that speak the same language_, meaning they use the same register, is trivial.

I use LLMs to build some nice customized and some basically standard tools so I can go from learning about code to learning Rust et al properly ... the next 2 years are scheduled for me. I want code and LLM supply chains as a proper hobby, partially because I find the overall "transformers" approach pretty bad since there is no implicit path towards intelligence and zero chance to build one on top explicitly. it's just a bunch of parrots but parrots are awesome and i'm glad I get to have so many.

Also: I really don't care what the communities think, though ... it's 2026 and all that code, math, science, engineering didn't build any special amount of good, "bad" ( vs ugly personalities ) or cool characters that we didn't have already and it didn't cause any "mutations" in schools of thought either, or drive movements where they were needed.

but I'm a bystander, which wasn't my choice, unfortunately, so y'all know much better what I'm talking about.

most players in the lower leagues won't dope but some do and take bribes anyway, what?

it's a cowardly new world, everybody, happy Esoteric Right Wing Hanukkah!

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#229

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

Nice analysis! I would perhaps add that LLMs are pretty helpful at (2) in my experience, as long as you don't turn your brain off. (As a Google/SO replacement, mainly.)

I have about three modes, working with LLMs:

A) Just use them for (2), do (3) and (4) myself.

B) Just use them for (2) and (3), but with very fine grained instructions - to the point where it barely saves me time.

C) Use them for (2), (3) and (4), but with this workflow, it quickly degrades into slop for me.

I still get the best results with (A), but for a quick PoC, (C) is hard to beat.

What's hilarious (or sad) is that I see a lot of people throw them at (1) as well, which seems to have a high chance of inducing AI psychosis and creating software nobody understands, let alone needs.

Re: Born Against, or why hobby programming communities are against LLM usage

#230

Programming has five phases effectively: 1) You figure out what problem to solve. 2) You figure out HOW to solve the problem. 3) You actually implement the solution. 4) You see the solution work, for yourself. 5) You ship/deploy/publish the program. This means you see people be happy users and/or you get paid for it and so on. If you're an entrepreneur type, you probably enjoy the first and last steps most, and you s…

That's actually a great classification and I've never seen it being laid out like that. I guess it can be useful to know "what kind" of programmer one is.
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