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Western Sahara

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Re: Western Sahara

#41

Post by f6v »

timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

Thanks for sharing!

I'm not familiar with the situation, so maybe you can help me out. What's the stance of Polisario on Islam and religion in general?

Re: Western Sahara

#42

Post by pstuart »

rockostrich wrote: post #5

Not sure if this is some kind of Baader-Meinhof phenomenon or if OP just also did the NYT crossword this morning.

Same, but it was a video diving deep into the recent news about the surge of refugees into Spain -- very enlightening.

Found it. It's Cody Dahler who is a cheeky commenter on "current events" -- he's worth watching. Couldn't find it on YT so FB it is:

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/18E6NXM2NH/

Re: Western Sahara

#43

Post by f6v »

jvican wrote: post #36
timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

[flagged]

It's always funny how one side always assumes they're right. But from outsider's perspective, both sides always suck (Palestine and Israel, I'm looking at you).

So, please, stop with the knee-jerk "It's a propaganda!". You don't bring anything to the discussion.

Re: Western Sahara

#44

Post by dhosek »

rockostrich wrote: post #5

Not sure if this is some kind of Baader-Meinhof phenomenon or if OP just also did the NYT crossword this morning.

It also showed up in the discourse thanks to Christopher Nolan controversially filming parts of The Odyssey there.

Re: Western Sahara

#45

Post by alephnerd »

f6v wrote: post #41
timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

Thanks for sharing! I'm not familiar with the situation, so maybe you can help me out. What's the stance of Polisario on Islam and religion in general?

Not OP but they're supposedly secular.

In action, much of their leadership defected to join ISGS, AQIM, JNIM, and other Islamist groups in the Sahel and Maghreb in the 1990s to 2000s that have put Burkina Faso, Mali, and Niger under siege. Adnan al-Sahrawi (POLISARIO turned Islamic State) played a major role in that.

It's a side effect of the Algerian Civil War in the 1990s (Military leadership versus moderate Islamists backed by Morocco versus hardcore Islamists backed by Iran - very very horrible civil war that the Maghreb never recovered from and only exacerbated the Libyan Civil War) and Polisario got pulled into it.

Both Morocco and Algeria have had a multi-decade rivalry over accessing the Atlantic Coast as well as becoming the primary hegemon of the Sahel and Maghreb.

The only winning move for Europe is doubling down support for FRONTEX and staying out of it. Otherwise, you get blowback like in France due to returnees the Algerian Civil War creating jihadist cells in the 1990s to 2010s (remember Charlie Hebdo, the Paris Bombings, and Flight 8969?). The Bosnian War had a similar impact as well. Most European jihadist networks trace their origins to veterans from the Algerian and Bosnian Wars.

With neighbors like these...

Re: Western Sahara

#46

Post by yorwba »

timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

> Sahrawis on the Moroccan controlled areas basically enjoy a welfare state with free transport, no VAT, and many other benefits.

How is this implemented? Do ethnic Sahrawis get special IDs that entitle them to such benefits? Or do they also apply to Moroccan settlers from the north? And considering that Moroccan provincial boundaries don't align with the borders of Spanish West Africa, where does Western Sahara even begin from the Moroccan point of view?

Re: Western Sahara

#47

Post by timinou »

f6v wrote: post #41
timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

Thanks for sharing! I'm not familiar with the situation, so maybe you can help me out. What's the stance of Polisario on Islam and religion in general?

From what I understand, it's a secular movement but it's not anti-religion. It's rooted in socialism and Arab nationalism way more so than religion, although I think Islam has 'official religion' status.

Morocco OTOH is a Muslim state, with most laws being secular except for family laws, sexual freedoms, and inheritance. Before Western colonial times, the Moroccan royal dynasty built a lot of its soft power on spreading Morocco-based Sufi orders South, and one of the king's titles is "Commander of Believers", which is how caliphs of the original Muslim caliphate called themselves.

People like that he has this role because it helps keep Islam somewhat out of politics, but it cuts both ways: it's harder for religious conservatives to argue against more liberal laws when the institution (called the "Makhzen") proposes them, but it's even harder for individual liberty advocates to argue for a more progressive society when it goes against the Makhzen's plans.

Re: Western Sahara

#48

Post by artnanika »

timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

Calling Morocco a "constitutional monarchy" when it is a hereditary dictatorship with no binding constitution (meaning no greater authority to punish the king for violating the "constitution") discredits all the other points you've made.

Also, there's a difference between undemocratic and antidemocratic. Morocco is antidemocratic, while Polisario is undemocratic. Polisario could be a democracy if it allows its leaders to be elected, but Morocco will never be a democracy since you don't elect kings.

Re: Western Sahara

#49

Post by JuniperMesos »

artnanika wrote: post #48
timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

Calling Morocco a "constitutional monarchy" when it is a hereditary dictatorship with no binding constitution (meaning no greater authority to punish the king for violating the "constitution") discredits all the other points you've made. Also, there's a difference between undemocratic and antidemocratic. Morocco is antidemocratic, while Polisario is undemocratic. Polisario could be a democracy if it allows its leader…

I don't see how this is any different than the United Kingdom and its monarchy.

Re: Western Sahara

#50

Post by mohamedkoubaa »

timinou wrote: post #29

A couple of misconceptions about Western Sahara I've seen pop up over the past few days: - most (90%) of Morocco's phosphate mining is done in non-disputed territories (it's mentioned in the article). The most disputed resource is actually fish, and to some degree predicted oil reserves. - Tribal allegiances to the Moroccan crown date back from way before colonial times. Today, part of the Sahrawi population supports…

As a North African, your inability to respect the right to self determination of a an aggreived minority population has nothing to do with the "economic integration of North Africa".
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