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SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

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Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#81
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah so you just don't actually understand the economics. The thing is, unless you massively increase the volume of Falcon 9, you are not going to get it that much cheaper. Its already incredibly cheap given that its made out of fancy aerospace material that needs to be shaped and welded with complex processes. If they invested a lot, could they get it a little cheaper? Sure maybe a few % ever year. They have been re…

You summed up the naïve approach to the cost and reusability issue: > To actually reach the next level of profit opportunity you need to achieve full re-usability. Upper stage reusability is hard, heavy, and expensive. At least 5X as hard as booster reusability. On top of that they have to bet that they can scale starship launches to the point where they can economically fly 15 starship refueling missions just to get…

Refueling and moon mission is not primary motivation, Starlink and so on are.

You would likely have called it naive to try to develop reusability in the first place. Yes its harder. But they also have a much, much bigger team. They have an experience engine team. Simulation team and so on. And they have the need and the financial positioning.

Re-usability is the holy grail of space flight, if in the current situation SpaceX would not go after it they would be insane.

Its certainty smarter then your idea of an incrementally improved Falcon 9 upgrade.

> On top of that they have to bet that they can scale starship launches to the point where they can economically fly 15 starship refueling missions just to get one starship out of low orbit.

That just nonsense, where are you getting your information from. The 15 missions are for getting something from LEO to the moon, land and go back to Lunar orbit.

> As of now, completing an orbit at any elevation is a trust me bro thing.

No its a 'if you actually thing about it for 2s' then you can trust it thing. They have basically achieved orbital velocity and could have gone into orbit. This is beyond question.

The important and difficult thing is getting the ship to the ground and landing. And they have demonstrated precision landing after orbital speed insertion. They have even done extra hot approach to stress the heat shield even more, and have even left many tiles out to test what happens when tiles are missing.

If they actually did a full orbit or not is completely 100% totally and utterly irrelevant to anybody except a few people who hate Musk for political reasons.

> Every one of Elon's gambles has five subsidiary gambles: if starship falls 30% short of expected payload capacity, it no longer takes 15 refueling missions but 25. That's just one example.

And that only costs them a like 1 billion $ max if they can't do the lunar flights.

Even a 30% less Starship could be useful for Starlink. And worse case the can fly Starship in Falcon 9 mode and drop the upper stage and have fucking insane payload to Orbit.

> That's what you get when one of your software guys told you about agile, and you thought let's build a rocket that way.

You get the largest rocket ever built and the best engine ever built. The largest vehicle ever returned from orbit and so on.

Do you have any actual critic of their approach. Can you actually show that some other approach would have been cheaper? What are you basing that assumption on? Starship has been reasonably cheap and incredibly so given the problem its trying to solve and how much infrastructure they are building.

Why should I trust you rather then, you know the people at SpaceX who have revolutionized the space industry? Have launched and landed more rocket then anybody. Have better data then anymore. Have worked on this problem for a decade, and have changed their design a bunch of time. What expertise do you have in the development of fully reusable launch vehicles?

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#82
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how people how hate Musk always reach for the 'but Gwynne Shotwell' nonsense. Gwynne Shotwell was incredibly frustrated with the aerospace industry. So frustrated that she thought about leaving the industry. She didn't see any chance the industry and NASA as it existed to make progress. That's exactly why she left and went to a company that tried to be different and break the mold. And guess what, without the g…

>- JPL would never get to money to do such a project for many reasons - JPL would never put Shotwell as her focus was business development (let alone Musk) - Shotwell wouldn't have had the vision that Musk has (as she herself said, her focus when talking to Musk was making sure that the rocket being developed was something she could sell) - JPL wouldn't ever have run the project the way SpaceX had because they have p…

Your point is so fucking pointless, meaningless and pedantic. People are not 'hung up' on it. Its just an irrelevant fucking point that has no practical meaning and you keep repeating it as if it had any relevance what so ever.

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#83
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- JPL would never get to money to do such a project for many reasons - JPL would never put Shotwell as her focus was business development (let alone Musk) - Shotwell wouldn't have had the vision that Musk has (as she herself said, her focus when talking to Musk was making sure that the rocket being developed was something she could sell) - JPL wouldn't ever have run the project the way SpaceX had because they have p…

Your point is so fucking pointless, meaningless and pedantic. People are not 'hung up' on it. Its just an irrelevant fucking point that has no practical meaning and you keep repeating it as if it had any relevance what so ever.

It's very relevant. It took over 10 years for anyone to land of an orbital launcher after it had been demonstrated.

i.e even though it had been proven it was possible, it was still hard to do

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#84
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually looked up the history of government owning its own defense contractors? Please tell me you have actually learned about this history. Because if you think having things like this be nationalized, I suggest you read some of that history. > People balk at the cost of large government in house projects like the manhattan project, well imagine that cost if the government had to pay contractor rates on th…

Once again, profit is a cost.

It may actually just show a gap in knowledge.

I'm sure you've heard of trade secrets before

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#85
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah so you just don't actually understand the economics. The thing is, unless you massively increase the volume of Falcon 9, you are not going to get it that much cheaper. Its already incredibly cheap given that its made out of fancy aerospace material that needs to be shaped and welded with complex processes. If they invested a lot, could they get it a little cheaper? Sure maybe a few % ever year. They have been re…

You summed up the naïve approach to the cost and reusability issue: > To actually reach the next level of profit opportunity you need to achieve full re-usability. Upper stage reusability is hard, heavy, and expensive. At least 5X as hard as booster reusability. On top of that they have to bet that they can scale starship launches to the point where they can economically fly 15 starship refueling missions just to get…

Blue Origin requires refuelling.

Refuelling Isn't a requirement for most of the work they plan to do.

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#86
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The c-suite are also employees, they are not entitled to the profits you were complaining about. Once more you demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the topic you're talking about.

I'd be shocked if any c suite compensation packages don't include significant equity

You understand any non-c-suite employee can also purchase equity if they work for a publicly traded company (like spaceX), right?

You're complaining that c-suite are being "forced" to own equity, while regular employees get the choice of doing so or not?

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#87
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- JPL would never get to money to do such a project for many reasons - JPL would never put Shotwell as her focus was business development (let alone Musk) - Shotwell wouldn't have had the vision that Musk has (as she herself said, her focus when talking to Musk was making sure that the rocket being developed was something she could sell) - JPL wouldn't ever have run the project the way SpaceX had because they have p…

Your point is so fucking pointless, meaningless and pedantic. People are not 'hung up' on it. Its just an irrelevant fucking point that has no practical meaning and you keep repeating it as if it had any relevance what so ever.

There has been plenty of ink spilled on the inherent waste of the private contractor model that our government relies upon. These aren't unique ideas. They are pretty well accepted.

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#88
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? I'm guessing spacex can be even lower dollar per kilo if they didn't have to make profit. That is my whole point. People are missing that point and going "well nasa doesn't have the talent blabla" that just misses this point entirely. Profit is a cost. You can never convince me profit is not a cost.

What do you think happens to this profit? Where does it go? > You can never convince me profit is not a cost. It is a cost, but with the cost you are getting something. And NASA (the US) as it happens literally got the best deal maybe in human history. The US was literally sucking in space, their rockets were shit. Their human launch was shit. All their major space project were going to utter and complete shit and we…

>What do you think happens to this profit? Where does it go?

To expensive homes. Expensive vacations. Expensive cars. Expensive meals. Private jets. Buying a social media website. Etc. All waste. Finery.

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#89
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be shocked if any c suite compensation packages don't include significant equity

You understand any non-c-suite employee can also purchase equity if they work for a publicly traded company (like spaceX), right? You're complaining that c-suite are being "forced" to own equity, while regular employees get the choice of doing so or not?

C suite compensation is completely bonkers compared to what they actually do. That is all waste, whether paid out in base, equity, bonus, or whatever other benefit.

Re: SpaceX wins $1.6B Space Force contract for 18 Falcon 9 launches

#90
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, profit is a cost.

It may actually just show a gap in knowledge. I'm sure you've heard of trade secrets before

Not sure how trade secrets are dismissing the point of profit being a cost.
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