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The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

inc.com

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Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#11

Post by arbuge »

Patents are completely broken in the software world - if your web/ecommerce company reaches ~$10m in revenue at any point, the corresponding rise in media attention will likely also bring you trolls demanding settlements. This is most certainly not what the patent system was intended to be used for. These people are legal criminals exploiting the law. The Acacia CEO's rationale is rubbish in my opinion. Protecting inventors, my foot.

ps. I'm curious about the patent that was used to extract hundreds of millions from defendants, including $565m from Microsoft, and was subsequently invalidated. Will that money now have to be refunded, along with the defendants legal fees, interest charges, etc.?

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#12

Post by cwp »

This article gives me an idea. Theoretically, problem with trolls is that they can't be counter-sued because they're non-practicing entities, ie. they're not technology companies. But build.com isn't a technology company either, they just happen to use it in their operations.

From the article: "There was one for transferring data through a network, another for using images on a website, another for having a computer that connects to a database." Quick check... yup, intellectualventures.com has a web site with images. I bet they have a database of patents, too. Let's see... lodsys.com bingo.

So the real problem is just that "defensive" patents are optimized for counter-suing other technology companies, not trolls. (Well, no, the real problem is that the patent system is broken. But given the system we have...) What's needed is a pool of patents that could be used to counter-sue trolls. And hey, there are "business method" patents as well as technology patents. Could we get a patent on sending threatening letters? How about a patent on shell companies?

Now I'm off to work on my new invention: "method and apparatus for travelling to a courthouse by means of a motorized vehicle."

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#13

Post by JoshTriplett »

nlh wrote: post #3

Reading stories like this literally makes my blood boil. I know it's been discussed at length, but still. This is pure economic leakage -- it's an unintended consequence of well-intentioned legislation and it's absolute BS that companies have to put up with the trolls. Good on the guys for putting up a fight, as expensive as it is. I feel particularly frustrated about this whole mess because I don't see an end in sig…

> unintended consequence of well-intentioned legislation

I'd question both of your adjectives there. This seems like an intended consequence of heavily lobbied legislation, as evidenced by the reactions to any attempts to change this system.

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#14

Post by greenranger »

I have to think that as the generations that were brought up on the open web become older and take over the high positions in government and justice, we will eventually see patent trolling become harder and harder to pull off. I can clearly see the economic dangers of certain software patents whereas older folks like my mom and dad god bless em probably wouldn't.

I can't see anyone born after 1980 ever agreeing to award or honour a patent on "the interactive web" or "transferring data over a network". I mean -- really? It defies logic.

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#15

Post by lowboy »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #13
nlh wrote: post #3

Reading stories like this literally makes my blood boil. I know it's been discussed at length, but still. This is pure economic leakage -- it's an unintended consequence of well-intentioned legislation and it's absolute BS that companies have to put up with the trolls. Good on the guys for putting up a fight, as expensive as it is. I feel particularly frustrated about this whole mess because I don't see an end in sig…

> unintended consequence of well-intentioned legislation I'd question both of your adjectives there. This seems like an intended consequence of heavily lobbied legislation, as evidenced by the reactions to any attempts to change this system.

I think parent was referring to the inception of the patent system, which was well-intentioned. This is different from the trolls lobbying to keep the status quo, which is definitely not well-intentioned.

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#16

Post by finnw »

nlh wrote: post #3

Reading stories like this literally makes my blood boil. I know it's been discussed at length, but still. This is pure economic leakage -- it's an unintended consequence of well-intentioned legislation and it's absolute BS that companies have to put up with the trolls. Good on the guys for putting up a fight, as expensive as it is. I feel particularly frustrated about this whole mess because I don't see an end in sig…

> this literally makes my blood boil

Unlikely unless you're the Human Torch.

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#17

Post by dbrian »

cwp wrote: post #12

This article gives me an idea. Theoretically, problem with trolls is that they can't be counter-sued because they're non-practicing entities, ie. they're not technology companies. But build.com isn't a technology company either, they just happen to use it in their operations. From the article: "There was one for transferring data through a network, another for using images on a website, another for having a computer…

Having them rely on an industry group to take pity on their case and come to their defense is not a good long term solution. The only way this will change is if large companies (Google/Apple/MS/Amazon) decide it's in their best interest to put lobby money behind patent reform.

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#18

Post by ahlatimer »

astrodust wrote: post #9
rayiner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First: if an inventor comes up with some idea but decides that instead of producing products based on their invention waits for other people to come up with the same idea and get money from them (or has someone do it by proxity), then is that actually something we want to encourage? The idea is that the original inventor publishes the secret sauce via the required public disclosures and people either license the te…

I find it extremely unlikely that someone can conceive of and take the time patent something so novel that someone, somewhere, hasn't already tried it at least once. In those rare cases, it should be a requirement to produce a detailed description of the method by which the desired result is achieved, and that the patent would cover that specific method. "Attaching a computer to a database" is not a method. A very sp…

> it should be a requirement to produce a detailed description of the method by which the desired result is achieved

In theory, that's how it is. In order to receive a patent, you must first "reduce it to practice". That doesn't mean you have to build it yourself, but it does mean that you have to describe it in sufficient enough detail that a person of "ordinary skill in the art" should be able to actually build it.

In practice, that doesn't happen. Part of that is that a lot of really general patents got through in the 90s, as the article states. Another part is that patents are written in such thick legalese that you almost need formal education just to make sense of the language, and most people in software won't even bother.

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#19

Post by lancefisher »

finnw wrote: post #16
nlh wrote: post #3

Reading stories like this literally makes my blood boil. I know it's been discussed at length, but still. This is pure economic leakage -- it's an unintended consequence of well-intentioned legislation and it's absolute BS that companies have to put up with the trolls. Good on the guys for putting up a fight, as expensive as it is. I feel particularly frustrated about this whole mess because I don't see an end in sig…

> this literally makes my blood boil Unlikely unless you're the Human Torch.

https://www.google.com/search?q=define+literally

"2. Used to acknowledge that something is not literally true but is used for emphasis or to express strong feeling."

Re: The Real Toll of Patent Trolls

#20

Post by d2vid »

roc wrote: post #8
nlh wrote: post #3

Reading stories like this literally makes my blood boil. I know it's been discussed at length, but still. This is pure economic leakage -- it's an unintended consequence of well-intentioned legislation and it's absolute BS that companies have to put up with the trolls. Good on the guys for putting up a fight, as expensive as it is. I feel particularly frustrated about this whole mess because I don't see an end in sig…

One avenue would be a non-profit organization that takes membership fees from software firms and uses the pooled money to fight these legal battles, or make collective licensing agreements. The shakedown side of the troll business model relies on their being able to absorb more in legal fees than their targets. If their targets could actually force them to follow-through on their legal threats, the profitability of t…

How about an IP lawfirm offering insurance against patent trolls? Your company pays an annual fee. Once you get a shakedown notice, the law firm responds, letting the patent troll know that you have $0 marginal cost to making a stand. If the law firm had enough clients, their incentive would be to go to court to invalidate bad patents so they don't have to keep responding to the same shakedown notices.
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