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Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

franciscotrindade.me

71–80 of 116 posts

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#71
The problem I have: The CEO (and the investors, or the whole industry) is obsessed with ARR per employee. That's the key metric (in their mind).

It doesn't matter how much the employee costs. Let's assume you can hire two Juniors or one Senior for the same salary. If you have to optimize for ARR per employee - you can only hire one person. And if you have the choice between hiring a Junior or hiring a Senior... you're going to hire the Senior.

Goodhart's law fully applies here.

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#72

Pre-AI juniors were valuable because on many tasks, it was faster for me (senior eng) to write a quick spec have a conversation with a junior, and have them go off for a few hours or a few days and write the code, and then come back with it for review. I could do that with several junior engineers and pretty reasonably paralellize the work. Now a junior takes my spec, drops it into Claude, and submits a PR a few minu…

This, pretty much exactly what I've been noticing too. Feel for the juniors though, its rough trying to learn when the tool in front of you can just spit the whole answer out. I still think they're worth it, but tbh I just don't have a good answer yet for how to actually use them well, maybe just takes time to figure that out.

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#73
post #71

The problem I have: The CEO (and the investors, or the whole industry) is obsessed with ARR per employee. That's the key metric (in their mind). It doesn't matter how much the employee costs. Let's assume you can hire two Juniors or one Senior for the same salary. If you have to optimize for ARR per employee - you can only hire one person. And if you have the choice between hiring a Junior or hiring a Senior... you'r…

When you say the "whole industry", which industry are you referring to? The entire technology sector? Venture-backed companies specifically? Growth-stage VC-backed specifically?

This claim is counterintuitive to me in many business contexts - ex. for an established privately-held company issuing dividends to the owners, what incentive do owners have to emphasize ARR per employee rather than net income?

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been programming for 15 years, but I've never really taken the plunge into 3D work. Always wanted to. So I figure, now that coding agents are so powerful, let's see if I can make something! I've tried 3 experiments so far, and have given it serious effort. They're all terrible. The reason they're terrible is that it's a skill issue. I don't have 3D skills. I don't know the lingo, I don't know how to describe my…

Yeah, you need to learn the jargon, and then use that to ask the agent to debug its own output. Sometimes you can get away by asking the agent to do the web searches and get it to figure out the stuff on its own. Again, it's not zero effort, but it's no longer skilled work.

The point of my comment is that it's absolutely skilled work. If someone with 15 years of experience in programming can't simply make a lateral move into a different type of programming without falling on their face, then it means there's more than just jargon. Each problem domain has its own unique nuances that humans need to tease out, and that requires domain skills.

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#75
post #14

I'm not sure I understand the logic that we wouldn't hire Juniors because now we have AI. What jobs are Juniors doing that AI can now do? I don't get juniors to build me entire web sites or implement complicated agentic pieces of work. Most of the time, we hire Juniors to help fill the talent pool with the hope that they will be productive in a few months. If we think that we don't need to refill the pool now because…

I think you really want to look at this in terms of the fact that it was already getting difficult to convince companies to hire junior engineers. They already don't want to pay for the inevitable several months of training before they're working at full speed. They want someone to be productive for the money now. And senior engineers are probably more productive per $ than juniors, even if the seniors are getting paid more. It doesn't help that a lot of people in our industry like to switch jobs every two years (which is, of course, further not helped by the reluctance of companies to give raises rather than hire new), which means there's a good chance they'll do nothing but pay their training only for some other company to harness the benefits. And companies, especially publicly traded companies, want decisions to benefit the company in the next quarter, and while that may not be immediately on everyone's mind during the hiring discussion it does trickle down.

But the junior will do at least some real work that hopefully benefits the company while they are there. There is at least something on the "benefit" side of the cost/benefit balance to entice them.

The problem that AI creates is that it tends to eliminate even that benefit. The task I would assign to the junior as their first task, which I expect to take them some weeks on as they not only do the nominal task but acquire all the surrounding skills and knowledge to finish it, is now a prompt and the senior engineer intermittently checking in on the AI's completion of it. It's hard to justify hiring the junior and paying them for six months if the senior can do the task(s) they'll finish before they jet off to their next job in a fraction of a day or two.

I have written this from a point of view that is foreign to me to explain the problem from their point of view. I do not accept this formulation wholesale, though there are substantial kernels of truth in it that anyone who wants to convince a real person that they are wrong about this assessment will have to deal with. I'm a very long term oriented person and still believe that raising up talent within your organization is extremely important. After all, in the end, what even is your organization except the talent you have within it and the system you've built for it to operate? Unless you think you can operate without any people at all, people are a vital part of your organization and you'd better be growing the best people you can or you can expect to get beat in the long term by an organization that did invest.

But when I look out at the world, what I see operating in most people and companies is much closer to the point of view I described first. That "beat in the long term", however long it may be, is certainly longer than one quarter or even one fiscal year.

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#76
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just staring at the title, wondering how this offensive, double-and-a-half-negative phrase made it all the way to the frontpage. I'm going to skip this one for that obvious reason.

It's not really a double negative as the negations are in different clauses. If you remove both negations, you get a completely different statement: > Hiring junior engineers will solve the problem you think you have.

Clause change doesn't rescue the logic. If anything it makes it harder to process.

     Refusing to hire junior engineers won't fix your actual problem.
Fixed. I would click that.

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#77
post #14

I'm not sure I understand the logic that we wouldn't hire Juniors because now we have AI. What jobs are Juniors doing that AI can now do? I don't get juniors to build me entire web sites or implement complicated agentic pieces of work. Most of the time, we hire Juniors to help fill the talent pool with the hope that they will be productive in a few months. If we think that we don't need to refill the pool now because…

Agreed wfh to me is just generally bad for any creative work but for a new person it must be taking aways years of development.

WFH is good or bad depending on what task you need to do. My first year out of college (roughtly 1998!) my boss looked at me one day and said "you are on a complex problem: don't you dare come to the office tomorrow as we don't want you distracted". However I only made it a few hours at home because I soon ran into a problem where I needed to talk to someone else (my code was working all along but there was a hardware problem and once the FPGA was fixed it worked - since I was just out of school and the FPGA engineer has decades of experience they blamed me first and this once that was wrong)

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#78
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just staring at the title, wondering how this offensive, double-and-a-half-negative phrase made it all the way to the frontpage. I'm going to skip this one for that obvious reason.

I agree with the sibling comment and also don't understand how the title is "offensive". I literally can't think of anything that could be offensive about any term in the title or the title as a whole.

It's the logic that is offensive. Mimically restated - The title isn't incorrect but it won't be misunderstood by few.

A synonym for offensive is disgusting.

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess a lot of this depends on whether you consider juniors to be part of your talent pool. Unless you are retaining them, it is just subsidizing industry at large to train them. I stayed less than a year at my first two jobs. They bet wrong.

This is standard because after a year of experience, a fresh junior dev is worth roughly twice as much on the open market. Most companies won't give a 100% raise because it would upset the apple cart with other employees wanting similar raises. So the junior dev has to move on to get paid what they're worth.

    > This is standard because after a year of experience, a fresh junior dev is worth roughly twice as much on the open market.
My internal Brandolini's Law alarm is ringing loud and clear on this one. Absolutely not. This is only true for the best junior devs in the most competitive markets. From my professional experience, it is very difficult to keep star junior devs. The "gravity" pulling them away is simply too strong.

Re: Not hiring junior engineers won't solve the problem you think you have

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say anything racist or sexist. I'm mocking stupid people who are sucking up all the air in the room. Fuck these AI retards.

There's no need to use slurs.

AI is for retards.
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