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The Web We Lost

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Re: The Web We Lost

#31

Post by harlanlewis »

10098 wrote: post #9

Maybe I have changed, or maybe the Internet has changed, but I used to meet people on the internet. I used to make friends online, and some of these friendships gradually mutated into "offline" friendships. There used to be message boards, IRC and web chats where people would talk, form groups, become friends or enemies. People used to have blogs on livejournal or other services, some were trying to create content, w…

I've had the same feeling, but I don't think it's the internet - it's us.

Reflecting on some long-lost social circle that called an ancient BB home, I realized it had been a decade since I'd last meaningfully connected with an online community.

But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Take Dribbbble - folks follow, share, meet, and eventually collaborate with total strangers, following basically the same script I did 10 years ago. One of the qualities of successful online communities is their ability to catalyze connections between individuals through external channels - not just comments on a photo thread, but sharing IM, SMS, meatspace. Older communities like bikeforums.net are living artifacts of the old model. Some newer communities, like Meetup, race you through the first couple stages. Facebook works very hard to keep you inside.

I think my personal investment in communities has simply become focused on more immediate circles. But if I wanted to, there's a whole internet of people chatting about their interests with strangers who become friends (and allies and enemies).

Finally - no thread on ye olden days of message boards is complete without a link to The Flame Warriors - http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/acne.htm.

Re: The Web We Lost

#32

Post by gkelly »

krakensden wrote: post #2

I don't understand why he thinks the pendulum is swinging back. Is there any particular evidence of that?

I don't think it's swinging back, but I would like to hear his reasons for claiming it is.

Re: The Web We Lost

#33

Post by rhdoenges »

10098 wrote: post #9

Maybe I have changed, or maybe the Internet has changed, but I used to meet people on the internet. I used to make friends online, and some of these friendships gradually mutated into "offline" friendships. There used to be message boards, IRC and web chats where people would talk, form groups, become friends or enemies. People used to have blogs on livejournal or other services, some were trying to create content, w…

I've found that Tumblr's tag system works very well for the sort of serendipitous interaction you bring up. By tracking tags, I have met plenty of friends who, of course, share some of my interests. Heck, some of us started up an IRC channel. The web isn't going to stop forming friendships anytime soon.

Re: The Web We Lost

#35

Post by kamjam »

Meh, I disagree with a lot of that. You speak as if the internet ONLY consists of social now. Your points are nostalgic and looking at the past through rose tinted glasses IMO.

Five years ago, most social photos were uploaded to Flickr

You can still do this. People choose not to. I don't want strangers viewing my social pictures, esp if I had kids. These are private moments to be shared with my friends.

Ten years ago, you could allow people to post links on your site

You still can, it's your site. If you decide to monetize your site and display AdWords then that's your call. You don't have to be a sheep and follow what everyone else is doing.

In 2003, if you introduced a single-sign-in service that was run by a company...

Don't use them and create an account. No one is forcing you to use them, but for some of us (me) it's just easier to link several sign-ins together with my Google account. These are generally sites I trust. If I don't trust them then I'll use a disposable email account anyway to register. If the "average man" on the street doesn't know better then that's his/her problem, it's the same basic principle as identity theft and people guard against that. It's time they did the same online.

In the early days of the social web, there was a broad expectation that regular people might own their own identities by having their own websites

Really? A few people maybe, but most non-tech people I know really couldn't give 2 hoots. Wordpress and all the blogging sites have made a lot more people I know open their "own" sites than would have been owning a domain name and all the other hosting and "headache" that goes with it.

Five years ago, if you wanted to show content from one site or app on your own site or app...

Yes, agree it is bad, but that's business. The same thing happens in the real world, just because it is online the principles of business do not disappear and unfortunately not everyone is that tech-savvy and some of those people who pumped millions into a business may not "get" the web like you.

I don't think we have "lost" any of these. People have just decided to move on as the technology has advanced. The internet is a lot more open and a lot more accessible to many more people than it has ever been. As a developer I may care about the above (I don't) but as a regular joe, I don't think I would waste 2 seconds, no matter how long I have been using the web.

Re: The Web We Lost

#36

Post by saurik »

smacktoward wrote: post #27
roc wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about Wordpress? (snark about technical messes aside) It's as easy as it can possibly be to get a hosted blog up and running -- even with your own domain -- via their forms. But, unlike Facebook, if you don't like their service, or need more, or don't like some ToS change or version 'update', you can wrap it up with a bow and take it elsewhere. And businesses exist that will even make that as easy as filling out…

WordPress is actually a good example. There's the self-hosted software distributed at WordPress.org, which works in the Web 2000 fashion (here's some software, figure the rest out yourself). And there's the hosted service at WordPress.com, which works in the walled-garden fashion (though with liberal allowances for things like getting at your data, which is nice). Lots of people run their own WordPress installations,…

Yeah, I would go do far as to say that WordPress made something inherently difficult look easier than it actually is (in addition to some parts which really are easier: as in, there are two metrics, and the former was lowered in an amount much greater than the latter), causing a bunch of people to mistakingly believe that they can handle it themselves; sometimes, a weird configuration file format, or a requirement that you get four pieces separately and stitch them together, is not making something harder for no good reason: it is a subtle indication that helps people understand when they are getting in over their head.

I liken it to the idea that the Infested Forest should look as dark and imposing as it is dangerous: replacing the craggily trees with candy canes and the wolves with golden retriever puppies (still trained to kill, mind you), and carefully laying a golden brick road through the center for easy access with a new sign at the entrance reading "Welcome to the Friendly Forest (Version 2.0)", makes a very dangerous situation look much less scary than it should... the "looking scary enough--or just being difficult enough to navigate--that you don't go in without an RPG party wearing enchanted armor carrying Ariadne's thread" was actually a feature, not a bug.

Re: The Web We Lost

#37

Post by IheartApplesDix »

aes256 wrote: post #10

Looks like the author is wearing rose-tinted glasses to me. While much of the observations may be true, the web is still a far richer and more valuable resource than it was five or ten years ago.

I don't find this to be true, but that's perhaps I'm not far richer than I was 5 or 10 years ago. Somewhere along the way, accessibility to truth was thrown under the bus for clickbait and walled gardens.

Re: The Web We Lost

#38

Post by kamjam »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #17
majormajor wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly prefer the web of today to the web of ten years ago because those barriers to entry prevented most people from doing all the cool stuff Anil talks about. So it was possible to have all those better connections, but it didn't happen much. One way or another, services would've arised that would've tied it all together for the non-technical. I don't think we lost anything more than a potential to have a "bett…

I miss the barrier to entry that we used to have. I know this might be a narrowminded view but that barrier to entry prevented a lot of the drivel that we see on the internet today. In the 90s and early 2000s if you wanted to put something online you had to have at least a moderate level of technical aptitude. Compare that to today's nonstop garbage fountain of ignorance on sites like tumblr, twitter and facebook.

And at the same time it allows someone in the middle of a war torn country to take a picture with their mobile phone and instantly upload it to the world.

You are essentially talking of the same kind of barriers of entry that Anil complains about the Facebook et al put up around data exchange.

Re: The Web We Lost

#39

Post by stcredzero »

smacktoward wrote: post #4

I agree with Anil 110% that the Web he's talking about was, in many, many ways, a Better Web than the one we have today. The problem is that it's worse than the one we have today in the only way that most people care about: it's harder. To participate, it expected you to know how to do a bunch of things that seem trivial to tech folks but frighteningly complicated to everybody else. You had to buy a domain. You had t…

> To participate, it expected you to know how to do a bunch of things that seem trivial to tech folks but frighteningly complicated to everybody else.

This is why a lot of technically superior cool things people invent lose out to corrupted versions.

> to get that accessibility, the hosted services make you give up a lot of things.

I don't see how any of those things are necessary. I can see how the environment incentivizes those things, but none of them are necessary. Maybe there's no practical difference in the end.

Network Effects are just as important as software freedom and technical excellence. By now, the tech world should know this lesson, as should those who would support the cause of software freedom and technical excellence.

Re: The Web We Lost

#40

Post by IheartApplesDix »

untog wrote: post #6

Funny that he says all this then has a Facebook comments box at the bottom of the page. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that IMO- people are far more likely to have their real names on Facebook, and thus leave sensible comments rather than total drivel. But it makes a point that he doesn't include in the article- sometimes these centralised information stores can be useful.

I prefer Disqus comment system even though when you sign in, it gives it access to post on your whatever account you decide to use. I just go back to twitter then block access again everytime I use it. It's obviously not a good long term solution though.

Does every website really need to have a universal comment system?

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